I'm wandering if you guy's can help out.............

I have a pair of Penta 2's and am totally impressed with the sound quality - I drive them through the BC9500 or a BS 5500

How do they compare with the newer range of Beolab - i.e. 6000 or 8000

I've never heard the referenced speakers nor can I afford them, but would really like to know........ is there really any marked difference?

As stated, for my untrained ear my Penta's are sound truly fabulous.

 

8000s just sound different - very different, it's up to you which you prefer between the Pentas and the 8000s. The BeoLab 9s are IMO a very very very marked improvement over the Pentas, and the BeoLab 5s are in a completely different league - absolutely no comparison.

Hi,

I guess I should have built a price into the equation .................

Am I correct in thinking the 5's are squillions of cash??

Pound for pound how do the Penta's fair?

Very well! I chose Pentas over 8000s - remember that they were sold at the same time and the Pentas were about £500 more. Much superior bass and they have the display. The 8000s have a slightly sweeter top end. In my view, Pentas are very good value for money these days.

Yes the BeoLab 5s are squillions of pounds in relation to speakers likes the Pentas, but in terms of the sound they produce, I personally rate them as the best on the market in terms of 'sound per pound'. A far out claim I know, but I'm saying it honestly.

Hey Steve.  I think the Pentas are indeed better sounding than the 8000's.  Remember, the Pentas and the 8000's were sold side-by-side for over 5 years, with the Penta being sold as the top of the line speaker, and the 8000 being sold as the 2nd best.  It's only because the 8000's are still in production that their value is more than the Pentas.  It's ironic really, because you could have bought both a pair of Penta 3's in 1995 and a pair of 8000's, and the Pentas would have cost a ton more.  But now on the used market the 8000's will be worth twice as much simply because people see them as a current model.  I know people will call me crazy, but I honestly think a top condition pair of CX100's on a really good amp sounds about as good as the 8000's.  After all, they both have the same size drivers, and a similar cabinet volume, so I don't know whether it's really that surprising.

I was a little dismayed to find that although the Pentas use a good SEAS tweeter, the midranges were made by a german oem car speaker company, and I actually found a source for them at less than $10 each.  Even though the specifications aren't exactly the same, they're roughly the same speaker.  Right now I'm trying to figure out a way to replace the midranges with a peerless model that I think would be well matched, although I'll need to lathe the speaker basket to fit the Penta correctly.  Of course I'll also need to modify the crossovers, which is what I really don't feel like having to do.  If I get around to getting started I'll post a thread of course, but I think if it works there's a chance Pentas could be made to rival the beolab 9's.

In the end though, if you're worrying about 8000's sounding better than your Pentas - don't. 

Just because a speaker's specs are the same to another doesn't mean they will sound the same. CX100s are great little speakers but they are by no means a match for the 8000s.

I think that the Pentas are in a league above the 8000s. I've not heard them side by side, but I have heard 8000s loads of times and my own Pentas millions more, but I just think the facts stack up on the Pentas' side:

1) They were top of the line when sold contemporaneously

2) The Pentas have more drivers

3) Pentas have a bigger and better amp

4) Pentas have a display

5) Pentas are pentagonal

Austin might be right about CX100s sounding as good, though I've only heard a pair through my BM5000 + a Cona subwoofer and the sound was good, but the Cona wasn't placed in the middle of the soundstage so it's hard to be 100% sure. I do like the 8000s, but I sometimes wonder how they've lasted quite so long in the product line up. 

The Beolab 8000 has lasted very long indeed in the product line up. Main reason must be that iconic design...

j0hnbarker:

I think that the Pentas are in a league above the 8000s. I've not heard them side by side, but I have heard 8000s loads of times and my own Pentas millions more, but I just think the facts stack up on the Pentas' side:

1) They were top of the line when sold contemporaneously

2) The Pentas have more drivers

3) Pentas have a bigger and better amp

4) Pentas have a display

5) Pentas are pentagonal

Austin might be right about CX100s sounding as good, though I've only heard a pair through my BM5000 + a Cona subwoofer and the sound was good, but the Cona wasn't placed in the middle of the soundstage so it's hard to be 100% sure. I do like the 8000s, but I sometimes wonder how they've lasted quite so long in the product line up. 

2) means nothing. I've heard speakers with a single driver which will outperform even Pentas (although they do cost an insane amount of money). 3) they'll need more power because they've got more drivers and passive crossovers as opposed to the active crossovers in the 8000s.

The 8000s have lasted so long because they are still a fantastic pair of speakers, and still sell well to match!

There is no way the CX100s are any where near the 8000s, as good as the CX100s are...

Alex:

j0hnbarker:

I think that the Pentas are in a league above the 8000s. I've not heard them side by side, but I have heard 8000s loads of times and my own Pentas millions more, but I just think the facts stack up on the Pentas' side:

1) They were top of the line when sold contemporaneously

2) The Pentas have more drivers

3) Pentas have a bigger and better amp

4) Pentas have a display

5) Pentas are pentagonal

Austin might be right about CX100s sounding as good, though I've only heard a pair through my BM5000 + a Cona subwoofer and the sound was good, but the Cona wasn't placed in the middle of the soundstage so it's hard to be 100% sure. I do like the 8000s, but I sometimes wonder how they've lasted quite so long in the product line up. 

2) means nothing. I've heard speakers with a single driver which will outperform even Pentas (although they do cost an insane amount of money). 3) they'll need more power because they've got more drivers and passive crossovers as opposed to the active crossovers in the 8000s.

The 8000s have lasted so long because they are still a fantastic pair of speakers, and still sell well to match!

There is no way the CX100s are any where near the 8000s, as good as the CX100s are...

Assuming 2 is true, then we can set aside what you've heard. These speakers (Pentas/8000s) never cost an insane amount of money, and if that's what it takes to make one driver sound good, then it's not in the same league as our discussion here. 

3 - power is everything. Why get excited about a Bugatti Veyron or, for that matter, Beolab 5s? Answer: P-O-W-E-R. We all love it!

As for the CX100s - perhaps we could run a test using a great B&O passive amp and some CX100s vs. some 8000s. I wonder if anyone has any experience of this? I have a feeling that the CX100s will run the 8000s very close. 

I have to agree - A blind test would be interesting! Regarding Pentas, I once had a setup involving the following:

Beomaster 8000, Beogram 8002 (MMC2), Beogram CDX and passive Pentas. It sounded unbelieveable! Far better than active Pentas and definately without question better than the BC2300/Lab 8000s I replaced it with! 

Alex:

Just because a speaker's specs are the same to another doesn't mean they will sound the same. CX100s are great little speakers but they are by no means a match for the 8000s.

 Hi Alex.  I wasn't saying that the 8000's and the cx100's sound the same, or that they have the same specs.  Their specs are very different and the sound is different too.  I was simply saying that I think they sound as good, which is different from sounding the same.  I then said that because they both use a pair of 4in woofers with similar cabinet volumes I wasn't very surprised to think that the CX's could sound as good.  Grant it this is still my opinion.  Perhaps of course I just haven't heard the 8000's enough.

There's no way though that purely within the realms of this thread we will ever be able to definitively declare one speaker as being "better" than another.  We would first need to establish what "better" means.  In an attempt to be objective we could decide that "better" means having the flattest frequency response when measured both on and off axis at a given distance from the front baffle.  But then some people may think a particular speaker sounds better even if its frequency response isn't as accurate.  Does their opinion not count?  In the end, we listen to these speakers for enjoyment, and if you enjoy listening to one speaker more than another then that's what matters.

 

Alex:

j0hnbarker:

I think that the Pentas are in a league above the 8000s. I've not heard them side by side, but I have heard 8000s loads of times and my own Pentas millions more, but I just think the facts stack up on the Pentas' side:

1) They were top of the line when sold contemporaneously

2) The Pentas have more drivers

3) Pentas have a bigger and better amp

4) Pentas have a display

5) Pentas are pentagonal

Austin might be right about CX100s sounding as good, though I've only heard a pair through my BM5000 + a Cona subwoofer and the sound was good, but the Cona wasn't placed in the middle of the soundstage so it's hard to be 100% sure. I do like the 8000s, but I sometimes wonder how they've lasted quite so long in the product line up. 

2) means nothing. I've heard speakers with a single driver which will outperform even Pentas (although they do cost an insane amount of money). 3) they'll need more power because they've got more drivers and passive crossovers as opposed to the active crossovers in the 8000s.

The 8000s have lasted so long because they are still a fantastic pair of speakers, and still sell well to match!

There is no way the CX100s are any where near the 8000s, as good as the CX100s are...

 

I'll disagree here in regards to the drivers.  Having multiple drivers doesn't necessarily make a speaker better, but it does have merit.  Having a combination of identical drivers functioning together means that in any single wave cycle, a greater volume of air is displaced by the cones.  This means that as the sound volume increases the speakers don't need to work as hard and be pushed to their limit.  This doesn't however mean that any given pair of drivers will sound better than a different single driver.  In other words I'm not saying a pair of driver "A" will sound better than a single driver "B" just because there's two of "A".  I single driver can indeed outperform multiple drivers of lesser quality.  It can however help explain why the Pentas can still sound quite good while using lower quality mids and woofers though - by sharing the work across an array, the group can help to make up for the deficiencies that would have been more apparent in the single drivers.  Zaph of zaphaudio.com (a very well-known speaker builder in the diy community) highlighted this phenomenon with a mid-tweeter-mid speaker he designed and tested using relatively inexpensive drivers.  Having designed the speaker quite well he was able to produce a quality that wouldn't have otherwise belied the price of the cheaper drivers.  He states this in the 2nd to last sentence under "summary" at the bottom of the page.  By the way, I'd recommend reading through the rest of his website to anyone really interested in speaker design.  There's plenty of good information:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html

Power is something not really worth comparing between the speakers given how many variables there are.  The majority of the power produced by an amplifier is dissipated as heat.  For the speakers we're talking about we don't know exactly what the efficiency ratings are, nor would I be quick to trust manufacturer specifications.  Even if we did know the true electrical power output, we would need to consider different efficiencies amongst the drivers, and how the overall efficiencies are affected by the crossovers.  Needless to say, it's quite difficult to really compare output power ratings.

Pentas do have much more volume than the 8000's which definitely helps in the bass response though.

In the end though, the focus of the thread was originally Steve asking how speakers like the Pentas stack up against some of the more modern speakers such as the 8000's.  I think rather than simply trying to argue one way or the other which speaker is better, it'd be interesting to here the opinions of people who own or have owned both.  Maybe Andy (jandyt) can chime in here, as I know he has a pair of Pentas that he's been using as his main front speakers..........with bl8000's as the rears 

Austin

Multiple tweeters are not beneficial, and the same goes for multiple midrange drivers. If anything, you make the sound worse by using multiple drivers if you listen on varying vertical axis. Sound from each driver will overlap and you'll get destructive and constructive interference leading to comb filtering and phasing issues.

The only way round it is to have as few sources of sound as possible.

Alex:

Multiple tweeters are not beneficial, and the same goes for multiple midrange drivers. If anything, you make the sound worse by using multiple drivers if you listen on varying vertical axis. Sound from each driver will overlap and you'll get destructive and constructive interference leading to comb filtering and phasing issues.

The only way round it is to have as few sources of sound as possible.

 

I'm sure these speakers sound terrible then;

http://junkies.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/mcintosh-xrt2k-loudspeaker-system/

 Saying that, i'd probably have these over anything B&O have produced, and are currently producing!

Interesting debate: This thread got unexpectedly revivied a few days ago and has been playing around in my head ever since: 8000 vs Redline Whilst no sane person would argue that the Redlines look as good as the 8000's the fact that there was nobody at all disputing the fact that the redlines sounded better does make me question the whole concept of active speakers. With the possible exception of the ALT speakers do any of the B&O active speakers actually sound better than the higher-end B&O passive speakers? On the same lines what are the acoustic (rather than ergonomic) considerations that make active speakers better?

 

Simon

The issue isn't "active or not", in the case of the BL8000's the issue is the level of performance that can be dragged out of a limited volume enclosure, using a pair of small, albeit long-throw, drivers. Certainly being active definitely helps in this case as the bass power to the drivers is considerably boosted to extend the apparent bass extension of the speakers as a whole. (For bass read "air volume moved").

Active speakers have the distinct advantage of an amplifier for each driver and therefore the combined response can be specifcally tuned (with active, i.e. signal level, components) to achieve the desired, optimal response. Passive amplifiers have to supply all of the power, through a passive crossover, to all of the drivers. While the passive solution can sound wonderful, and was the basis of all hifi before the '80's, I would think it is obvious that separate optimally matched active amplifiers, separately powering the same drivers in the same enclosure can at least match if not likely exceed the performance of the passive solution. The reverse may not be true - how good could a pair of passive BL3's sound? - it would be interesting to find out.

I think in B&O's case, they took advantage of the technical possibilities and used them to do previously impossible things with the shape and styling of the speaker enclosures rather than persue ultimate performance with the early active speakers, hence the BL8000's.

The Lab 9 and Lab 5 show what is possible using active speakers (the Lab 5 also using DSP to modify the "crossover" to achieve it's bass equalisation). As clever as the ALT is, it's purpose is to modify and control the "directionality" of the treble output, it is not really a function of being active or not.

Llewelyn:

I have to agree - A blind test would be interesting! Regarding Pentas, I once had a setup involving the following:

Beomaster 8000, Beogram 8002 (MMC2), Beogram CDX and passive Pentas. It sounded unbelieveable! Far better than active Pentas and definately without question better than the BC2300/Lab 8000s I replaced it with! 

Got to agree with you. My living room setup is Beomaster 8000, Beogram 4002, Beogram CDX, and Beovox Pentas. This setup sounds better than any combination of source I have heard with Beolab 8000s.

I take it you have read this speaker shootout - written, by our recent birthday boy, at the time of the release of the BL9.

It would be cool to do this again while also plotting the decline in the ability to determine the difference versus the amount of alcohol consumed

Puncher:

I take it you have read this speaker shootout - written, by our recent birthday boy, at the time of the release of the BL9.

It would be cool to do this again while also plotting the decline in the ability to determine the difference versus the amount of alcohol consumed

I remember it well. Would be good to try this again sometime, but I guess the logistics would be difficult to sort out!

I agree that another shoot out would be good. This time I would suggest that we use passive speakers as well as active - and maybe set them up better. I do have some MS150s available as well as M100s and once my Beomaster 4401 is ready, we will have a nice amplifier to use. Venue will be an issue.

We could do it on the roadside of the A1, easy for everybody - I can bring a generator (plus there'll be no walls/corners to worry about)

Seriously, it would be great if we could organise something (and have a bit of a jolly afterwards)

 

Scotch Corner perhaps?

I too would be interested, but I need some notice to plan the trip...

Good idea - I can easily supply my stunning MC120.2's if needs be, Id be interested to see (hear) how they compare to the MS150's which are going to be my next project when I manage to track a pair of old dogs at the right price

A quick backtrack to the OP. IMO penta's are easily the best pound for pound speakers on the market at current values.

Chris.