hi to all of you and thanks for your warm welcome i am for the past two years b&o product free ,i miss not having b&o had their products tv/hifi  for nearly 15 years the last product i had was bv7-32  for a brief time ,am i the only one feel like that due to b&o lack of commitment to embrace the new technology &make it future proof ,for example why bv7 is not 100hz,when they preached how good that was on later avants!!hardly new technology is it??!

 

ed7:

hi to all of you and thanks for your warm welcome i am for the past two years b&o product free ,i miss not having b&o had their products tv/hifi  for nearly 15 years the last product i had was bv7-32  for a brief time ,am i the only one feel like that due to b&o lack of commitment to embrace the new technology &make it future proof ,for example why bv7 is not 100hz,when they preached how good that was on later avants!!hardly new technology is it??!

 

Well im not going to defend the BV7 but the whole flatscreen market now seems to be driven by statistics and a buying public that seem 'tuned into' these without knowing their true relevance and the effects it has on the picture. So all one hears about is LED backlighting, 100HTZ and 1080!!

The important and relevant things that make up a good picture are

Framerate/field rate
Black/white levels
Gamma (the curve of light output from black to white)
Color primaries (color gamut, saturation of colors)
White point
Color decoding (luminance/brightness of each color)

and the relevant things one wants to avoid

Edge enhancement/sharpness
Picture noise
Motion artifacts
Rainbows
Screen door effect
Hot-spotting
Viewing angle related effects (i.e. drop in contrast or color accuracy)
Etc.

Note- contrast ratio and resolution and 100htz are NOT on the list.

All the figures are being maniplated and contrast ratio is one example- the figures mean nothing at all! to prove this point- the latest BV7 quotes a CR of c2000-1  this is the naked rate of the panel. Now put some tinted glass in front and reduce the backlight, CR and sharpness so you eliminate many LCD problems and you end up with a real world CR of 400-1

The importnant thing is to get the basics right and LCD isnt in the race and only 2 brands- Pioneer and Fujitsu are making an effort to produce quality screens for the consumer( panasonic commercial  - NOT the viera)

Say your gamma is off- and on most it is!. That may result in a picture that looks like it lacks contrast. So, we turn on dynamic contrast, which crushes blacks. Now we can't see the details, so we introduce some fancy edge enhancement technique. This causes film grain to become much too noticable, so we have to use noise reduction. Now the picture lacks "pop", so we turn up the color temperature. This makes skin tones look horrible, so we screw around with the color decoding until skin tones look alright. Now we've messed around with the picture so much that we introduced banding of the colors. Now, what do you think is the best way to get rid of the banding: Introduce yet another processing chip that smoothes out color transitions, or make the gamma right in the first place to avoid all these issues?

There is no such thing as futureproofing , technology is being made cheaper and marketing becoming more importnant to persuade individuals that 100htz is a 'must have' and after that LED backlighting, HDMI1.3 true colour - which is another disaster waiting to happen and in the quest for the latest 'hot words' and these technologies are as cheap as chips- the customer gets oblivious to image quality- Its very difficult to sell a 720 plasma now- why??  because individuals have been conditioned to 1080 and yet i have yet to see a 1080 panel that comes close to a good 720 for the most part.

Forget the stats they now longer represent a true picture!

Great comment !

Please define 'future proof'. Why people believe they can future proof technology is beyond me. Does making a BV7 100Mhz make it 'future proof'. Future proof against what? It's not as if TV programmes will become 100Hz only in the near future. Hell, in the UK we're struggling to move across to digital, never mind HD.

Ok, perhaps the BV7-32 lacks all-important HDMI sockets, but the BV7-40 is as future proof as it can be at this point. No-one would argue that 100Hz technology would add quality improvement over the current BV7-40.

Lastly, have you ever seen a Sony catalogue? They list all sorts of picture improvement trademarks that make it sound like they employ technologies that other companies haven't yet developed. You could easily get hooked in to this marketing.

I saw a BV7-40 MKIII in London, the other day, showing King Kong on the Sky HD1 channel and it looked superb. I had to ask the dealer if it was a Blu-ray DVD, it was that good. Clear, crisp, sharp, colours looking vibrant etc. I'd seriously doubt if a £1000 100Hz  TV could better this or be more 'future proofed'.

moxxey:

Please define 'future proof'. Why people believe they can future proof technology is beyond me. Does making a BV7 100Mhz make it 'future proof'. Future proof against what? It's not as if TV programmes will become 100Hz only in the near future. Hell, in the UK we're struggling to move across to digital, never mind HD.

Ok, perhaps the BV7-32 lacks all-important HDMI sockets, but the BV7-40 is as future proof as it can be at this point. No-one would argue that 100Hz technology would add quality improvement over the current BV7-40.

Lastly, have you ever seen a Sony catalogue? They list all sorts of picture improvement trademarks that make it sound like they employ technologies that other companies haven't yet developed. You could easily get hooked in to this marketing.

I saw a BV7-40 MKIII in London, the other day, showing King Kong on the Sky HD1 channel and it looked superb. I had to ask the dealer if it was a Blu-ray DVD, it was that good. Clear, crisp, sharp, colours looking vibrant etc. I'd seriously doubt if a £1000 100Hz  TV could better this or be more 'future proofed'.

Well it begs the question- looked good compared to what?

The problem is that one tends to look at one film or dvd and make a judgement based upon that one experience. Problem is the BV7 is lacking- even in latest varient 111 I have  a number of standard DVDs that just look amazing on a Sony LCD- who make quite simply the worst TVs ever- I was with the trade press at IFA and even they recoiled in horror!- the fact my 2 chosen dvds look good proves nothing.

BnO is being greedy or should I say more greedy than usual in its pricing of the BV7- a truly crazy price - and therein lies the problem. There is no such thing as futureproofing but for that money - one almost deserves it!

355f:

Well it begs the question- looked good compared to what?

The problem is that one tends to look at one film or dvd and make a judgement based upon that one experience..

I'm sorry, but that's a rather naive comment. The BV7-40 MKIII results in a superb picture. Of course, a lot depends on the source.

If you don't like the price, don't buy the product. Simple.

moxxey:

355f:

Well it begs the question- looked good compared to what?

The problem is that one tends to look at one film or dvd and make a judgement based upon that one experience..

I'm sorry, but that's a rather naive comment. The BV7-40 MKIII results in a superb picture. Of course, a lot depends on the source.

If you don't like the price, don't buy the product. Simple.

Well ive only been manufacturing electronics for 15 years now so obviolusly got  a lot still to learn. if one feels the picture is superb - thats great- for you.

Why is it that many people who buy B&O always come back to ' if you dont like the price- dont buy it! -with the inference that if you cant afford the best- well tough!!  All im saying as a fact is that this is FAR from the best and thats why- despite access to any brand and at prices far far higher than B&O ( although not for LCD!!) I would not chose to buy this product- Its not a question of not liking the price. I match price to performance.

355f:

Why is it that many people who buy B&O always come back to ' if you dont like the price- dont buy it! -with the inference that if you cant afford the best- well tough!!  All im saying as a fact is that this is FAR from the best and thats why- despite access to any brand and at prices far far higher than B&O ( although not for LCD!!) I would not chose to buy this product- Its not a question of not liking the price. I match price to performance.

I'm saying this - pricing is dictated by demand. If people buy, there is a demand and B&O can keep justifying the price. Feel free to buy elsewhere, but the reason I buy B&O isn't *just* picture quality. It involves the quality of the complete product, the single remote, the flexible/movable stand, the ability to link, the superb audio quality of the speaker and, of course, the brand.

What a brilliant thread, and fascinating reading!
Ed7 started this thread and has, so far, only made the one post! I hope he hasn't been frightened off.

Andy T.

Rather than the hype of  the current "1080" resolution sales "epidemic" all I will say is that, with a suitably encoded source signal and a suitable, fast enough source - a 1080 native resolution picture must be more detailed than a 720 resolution picture. I understand comments about current panels and current signal processing but detail is detail! Ultimately the best of signal processing techniques will come to all and therefore raw detail will be the deciding factor (IMO).

Your viewing distance will ultimately decide whether this level of detail is relevant in your circumstance.

Me........ I still have a 32" CRT............... against the family's wishes!

 

Puncher:

--- a 1080 native resolution picture must be more detailed than a 720 resolution picture.

 

If you have access to a 1080 source ... and most, 9,5 out of 10, do not, or have not set up for it.

Just as Apple doesn't sell full resolution CDs over iTunes, broad- and cablecasters are not transmitting full resolution video: storing it, finding the bandwidth for it and ensuring the image quality are all inefficient and expensive today.

Standard Definition, DVDs and regular content upscales best to 720p/1080i today. The moment I have access to a good (not overcompressed) 1080p broadcast signal, then I'll buy 1080p. (Blade Runner on BR is the first movie in that format that I'm really interested in -- in a few years there will be a wider selection, let's hope.)

My BV7-40 was worth every penny, hell i might get one for the bedroom too.

Jez:

My BV7-40 was worth every penny, hell i might get one for the bedroom too.

Jez:

My BV7-40 was worth every penny, hell i might get one for the bedroom too.

 

I have my Bv7 Mklll Dark grey in my bedroom and the Bv7 Mk II in the living room! And i also think my two Bv7`s was worth every penny!!

I probably buy the BL5`s and a dark grey Bv9 later in 2008 for my living room.. And trade in the Bv7 40" Mk II... 50" = better for movies!

The only thing that matters in terms of picture quality is how it looks to your eye, it could have all the stats/features in the world (such as the Sony TVs, which have very good specs generally, but don't perform particularly well).

The only way I'd say B&O aren't embracing new technology as well as they could with TVs is in terms of HD connections. A few more HD inputs on the BeoVision 7-32 wouldn't go awry...

i agree here with alex it is shocking the lack of connections too on bv7-32 ,( bv 7-40 ) now got hdmi,but the slowness of  b&o with such a basic item is scary, is their policy customers always wrong!!!????

Yes, the slow adaptation of basic technology is frustrating sometimes, eg: HDMI or how long it took for DVD1 to come out. Personally think that DVD2 is 2 years late and pointless. Others are understandable, eg: Blu ray, HD DVD.

Jez:

Yes, the slow adaptation of basic technology is frustrating sometimes, eg: HDMI or how long it took for DVD1 to come out. Personally think that DVD2 is 2 years late and pointless. Others are understandable, eg: Blu ray, HD DVD.

 

Yes frustrating for the customer but not for BnO they dont make 60% margin for nothing!

 If they adopt new technology it costs and their profits would be less- if customers buy what they presently offer- BV7 with panels already 18 months out of date ect then why bother!

Sure, but at the same time i've plenty of friends using the latest Samsung LCD 40" units and have seen many other latest models on the market and my BV7-40" picture still kicks *** on the lot. On top of that with integrated DSS kit, DVD unit, Master Link, Motor stand and the ease of use with the simplicity that it integrates with all my other gear B&O and non B&O. I for one can justify it's price because value is in the eye of the beholder and if it was even more expensive I would still buy it because there isn't another product like it.

Latest specs don't always mean the best picture and overall performance.

Jez:

Sure, but at the same time i've plenty of friends using the latest Samsung LCD 40" units and have seen many other latest models on the market and my BV7-40" picture still kicks *** on the lot.

You'll never convince 355F, he seems immensely negative about B&O TVs at the moment. The BV7-40 MKIII panel is definitely not 18 months out of date., either.

The thing is, we all agree that the BV7-40 isn't worth £8.5K, but then we go out and buy regardless. So, the demand is still intact. If this demand remains, they'll never need to reduce the price - B&O set internal targets and, if these are met/exceeded, there's no need to change.

355F - you can't go on a one man crusade against the BV7-40, people can make their own minds on a) picture quality, b) performance and c) whether they can justify the price.

I think one should cut 355f a little slack.

He is very positive on the BV4 in combination with BeoSystem 3, considering it the best processed plasma image to be had now. That's not being on a crusade against B&O.

He is critical of B&O LCD connectivity, more than of image quality. And then I think he and Beolab have a fight going due to the fact that Beolab seems to have missed that 355f makes his living making televisions and other CE components. 355f has pointed out that a few claims made of BV7-40 performance do not correspond with the state of the art in LCD.

===

I think a lot of this would be avoided if people began realising that the mad rush for 1080p is a fool's errand given the paucity of sources for the same. It's forcing manufacturers to focus on the wrong things, to the detriment of all products on the market.

For my money, B&O represents a package that few other manufacturers can rival, and BV7 with BeoSystem 3 on board is a massively overengineered piece of kit compared to what you'll ordinarily find out there. I do seem to recollect that 355f owns one of those, so how anti-B&O can he be?

 

That's all fine, but then take in to account personal preference. Negativity about price and so on is fine, but we need to remember that this is the wrong forum for a one-man crusade against B&O's pricing structure. Yep, I'd agree some of the BVs are way over priced, but in some ways that also brings exclusivity. As good as the Pioneer Kuro is, it's still an affordable average consumer product. B&O are trying to be the supercar of the AV world. We all know that we couldn't justify the price of certain supercars - of which we never complain are overpriced - but there is a demand and people will always buy exclusivity.

With B&O, you're never going to get them to compete with average consumer-orientated products nor be market-leaders in terms of technology (Pioneer, Panasonic and others are always going to be at least a year ahead). However, they do know how to produce the supercar of AV technology and their build quality, prestige and exclusivity still appeals, which is why we can't complain that the TVs are so expensive.

355F doesn't own a BV7-40, as far as I can remember.

soundproof:

I think one should cut 355f a little slack.

He is very positive on the BV4 in combination with BeoSystem 3, considering it the best processed plasma image to be had now. That's not being on a crusade against B&O.

He is critical of B&O LCD connectivity, more than of image quality. And then I think he and Beolab have a fight going due to the fact that Beolab seems to have missed that 355f makes his living making televisions and other CE components. 355f has pointed out that a few claims made of BV7-40 performance do not correspond with the state of the art in LCD.

===

I think a lot of this would be avoided if people began realising that the mad rush for 1080p is a fool's errand given the paucity of sources for the same. It's forcing manufacturers to focus on the wrong things, to the detriment of all products on the market.

For my money, B&O represents a package that few other manufacturers can rival, and BV7 with BeoSystem 3 on board is a massively overengineered piece of kit compared to what you'll ordinarily find out there. I do seem to recollect that 355f owns one of those, so how anti-B&O can he be?

 

Yes i know for shore that Mr 355f have bin into the electronics around the world for 15 years and so on and on...But sometimes he just make statements just to be mean to all BV7 buyers... That the only combination to own is the BV4 + BS3 or else you most be stupid it sounds like...

Or the technology in BV7 MKIII are 18 month old...

Small silly paper driver like a clock radio doesn't need to run in at all on BL 8000.. But the fact it isn't any paper drivers i have discovered with picture and all..

And more and more statements like that make me and others angry.. I think some buyers have consider to buy a different brand because 355f statements that aren't true sometimes...

I think and hope the most people here know that B&o aren't the best high end brand in the world.. I didn't buy my equipment with the intention that i bought the best TV or speakers in the world or something.. I just love B&o and hope i got the most out of it....I bought it because of the design work of art, quality and mysticism... And they are good overall not in particular or optically i think..

 

Regards

 

 

 

moxxey:

B&O are trying to be the supercar of the AV world. We all know that we couldn't justify the price of certain supercars - of which we never complain are overpriced - but there is a demand and people will always buy exclusivity.

Well put, and absolutely true. I have a pair of supercar speakers right in front of me as I'm writing this. Similarly with the design and workmanship that goes into BeoVisions. Mine puts a smile on my face every morning -- and I'm certain that the member here who recently got a black BV7-40 with black 7-4 to match with his BL5s gets a frisson of enjoyment from merely seeing that setup, even before switching it on.

And kudos to B&O for being able to maintain that kind of premium exclusivity and workmanship. Nothing wrong in that.

I still think that a B&O enthusiasts site should be able to discuss both the pro's and con's openly. And for every superenthusiastic pro, there is bound to be a con -- as B&O can't be all things to all people. I do think the discussions will give the brand's developers a hint as to what is important, or not, in their planning -- and as such it's valuable. 

 

 

Beolab:

soundproof:

I think one should cut 355f a little slack.

He is very positive on the BV4 in combination with BeoSystem 3, considering it the best processed plasma image to be had now. That's not being on a crusade against B&O.

He is critical of B&O LCD connectivity, more than of image quality. And then I think he and Beolab have a fight going due to the fact that Beolab seems to have missed that 355f makes his living making televisions and other CE components. 355f has pointed out that a few claims made of BV7-40 performance do not correspond with the state of the art in LCD.

===

I think a lot of this would be avoided if people began realising that the mad rush for 1080p is a fool's errand given the paucity of sources for the same. It's forcing manufacturers to focus on the wrong things, to the detriment of all products on the market.

For my money, B&O represents a package that few other manufacturers can rival, and BV7 with BeoSystem 3 on board is a massively overengineered piece of kit compared to what you'll ordinarily find out there. I do seem to recollect that 355f owns one of those, so how anti-B&O can he be?

 

Yes i now for shore that Mr 355f have bin into the electronics around the world for 15 years and so on and on...But sometimes he just make statements just to be mean to all BV7 buyers... That the only combination to own is the BV4 + BS3 or else you most be stupid it sounds like...

Or the technology in BV7 MKIII are 18 month old...

Small silly paper driver like a clock radio doesn't need to run in at all on BL 8000.. But the fact it isn't any paper drivers i have discovered with picture and all..

And more and more statements like that make me and others angry.. I think some buyers have consider to buy a different brand because 355f statements that aren't true sometimes...

I think and hope the most people here know that B&o aren't the best high end brand in the world.. I didn't buy my equipment with the intention that i bought the best TV or speakers in the world or something.. I just love B&o and hope i got the most out of it....I bought it because of the design work of art, quality and mysticism... And they are good overall not in particular or optically i think..

 

Regards

 

 

 

Well Christmas is soon upon us and its the season of goodwill!!

I am certainly not running a crusade against the BV7 and  not against certain members whom I have never met!! that would be plain silly- So full aplologies to any individual that feels annoyed.

We all agree that B&O represents something special, we all agree that they will neevr compete against the panasonics of this world and we would never want them to. B&O is expensive as are many 'lifestyle brands' which is increasingly what BnO has become.  I love the style of the BV7 and feel it looks more BnO than the BV4 or 9 and it not a bad performer.

However, at a time when the major brands have collapsed the pricing structure to the extent that plasma and LCD has dropped by approx 50% in say 3 years ,BnO profits are clearly huge as the prices have increased and as has been pointed out- 'if you cant afford it- dont buy it' But  BnO should be doing  a far  far better job in some cases  and trying a lot harder rather than take the view the customer will pay no matter what and as a result make profits which any other electronics brand can only dream about. B&O cusomers want style and exclusivity, we know its not leading edge but we want products that at least give status quo to a good sub brand.

We all have a choice as consumers- and I do not seek to criticize those that make a purchase that doesnt fit with my thinking!! however when opinions are expressed that indicate a product is the best in its field, or the latest version is groundbreaking , I feel it would be good to justify such  claims in a wider context and find out how many individuals feel a product is 'simply the best there is' and more importnantly why?? ; but in so doing some individuals feel the need to justify further an original post when it transpires other posters do not necassarily feel the same way about a product. That way a proposed purchaser can look at a forum such as this- which in my eyes is not meant to be blind appreciation for the products and profits that BnO make, but rather a balanced view and in so doing said purchaser will be happy they came on the site and return to it as it was informative.

In the case of the BV7 we found , contrary to a few opinions that , yes it as a good product, yes it is better than the MK11 but probably by 15% and this was my original view. It did and does not represent a huge step forward which reading some reviews would lead one to believe.

To remain strong a company needs good profit but it cant linger on the reputation of the avant  as a flagship product, the BV4 and BS3 is more like it as are the BL9 and the 5. But with the profits Bn) is making from LCD and its earlier loudspeakers they should be working a lot harder to provide higher performance and quality. The success of BnO in the UK is largely due to a strong housing market and 'surplus cash' in the economy- many purchases are impulse buys. This market is now getting tougher, there will be less of these buyers ( all upmarket brands are finding this out) So BnO could be caught with some products that do not deserve the price premuims attached to them and markets can be cruel to such a business- pity the dealers who will pay the price.

No one is always right, sometimes by reasoned debate one can 'read through' the posts and make ones own judgement and I am more than happy to take any critisism , providing the aforementioned is fact rather than fiction- otherwise the point of posting at all is totally lost.