It has now been over 4 months (I even lost track) since I ordered (and of course paid for) replacement foam pads for my Form 2 headphone from my local dealer (the same place that I have bought $$$$$ of stuff over the years).  Less than 10 miles from my home.  Multiple calls, requests for follow-up, told had to get from Denmark (not even sure if ever ordered??? the sales rep knows me by name, but keeps insisting she cant help).  

Someone please give me any reason why I should invest in anything more - or why I should trust them with any more of my money.

I doubt the company will exist in the next few years - no great loss......

Checking out some nice McIntosh stuff.....

comments?

-michael

Like you, I really want to love B&O, and most of the time I do. But as of late its very hard to, due to much similar reasons you are having. My dealer has changed hands three times now in the past year, (managing to route my business out of state) ultimately landing two people that don't know anything and have to wait for their boss who of course is never in! I do love B&O but my horrible dealer makes it so hard!

So can your dealer not afford the expense of re-ordering a second set of foam pads to make sure they are on their way? Do they have a Form 2 on display? Because if they do you can always ask for the pads off that one .

I really do hope your able to like B&O again michael.

You will notice that the vast majority of us on this forum own vintage B&O. The reason is simple - there is a vast difference in pure quality between the old stuff and the new stuff.

I am very disappointed when I open up a new B&O piece, and discover the mediocre quality of components inside.

Looks are NOT everything!

AFAIAC, the new B&O has nothing to offer me, whereas my restored vintage 1970/1980's stuff will probably outlive me.

For the same money as a new B&O anything, better quality is available from other manufacturers - Arcam certainly comes to mind.

And then there is the service part of the equation, as you have discovered.

In the USA, I want to recommend Paul from Atlantic Systems as consistently helpful and knowledgeable. If you're having trouble with your local B&O dealer, contact him for a no-hassle experience. He is factory-authorized, so you don't have to deal with your local "un"-dealer at all.

Menahem

yachadm:

I am very disappointed when I open up a new B&O piece, and discover the mediocre quality of components inside...........

........For the same money as a new B&O anything, better quality is available from other manufacturers - Arcam certainly comes to mind.

Menahem

Menahem,

Is this a comment on the unservicability of modern B&O components, or are you saying that equipment made by the likes of Arcam is inherently superior in some way? Don't they have the same servicability issues when compared with vintage equipment?

(Took the liberty of posing  this question with a link back here in the General Forum).

Graham

There is really nothing in their product line that excites me or serves my needs (or wants)

The service is awful, the prices for what you get are, as well know, in outer space.

The quality is fading (I bought a phone for my mom a few years back and instantly returned it since the sound volume and quality was crap).

I follow this forum since it is interesting and I am still the owner of lots of their stuff - but like many former members (Mr 10% anyone?) the love affair is gone.

I am glad they are doing well installing sound systems in Yatchs and Aston Martins..... sounds like a strong business plan. 

As of now - if I ever get either, the only B&O on board will be attached to the anchor.

Furthermore, with advances in digital technology the quality can be obtained from any big box store for 1/10 the price.

And if anyone claims "quality of build" - maybe not the stuff that gets shipped to the US.......

Doesn't it depend on what one considers to be "servicable"? 

Components designed and built in the 1970's were simple units using lots of discrete components, boards with few layers, and fat traces. Units were serviced at the component level because it was possible to do so.

Fast forward to today's electronics, B&O or non-B&O. There are multi-layer boards packed with surface mount components and microprocessors with tiny, tiny legs. Not sure about B&O, but a lot of Asian companies use computer applications which optimize (minimize) the length of a trace between components overall. Shorter traces = less copper = lower cost. You need an extremely steady hand, a bench magnifier, a hot air gun or specialized tool for removing many of these components. It's faster to replace the board assembly than it is to spend the time doing component level repair on these. Plus, didn't B&O stop producing component level diagrams for their product starting in the early 1990's? Finally, the business model: Classic TV and stereo repair guys are getting on in their years. With no one buying stuff that requires their expertise, and companies training people to be board swappers instead, is it any surprise that what is happening is happening?

It is far faster for a robot in China to churn out a new board than it is to have an existing one repaired. Until that equation changes, through the market or legislation, I think the current model of use and consumption will prevail.

all true - but is there anything wrong with that model?

Agree with the above - generic chips programmed with the correct software is the way forward as it will be more reliable, much more compact and cheaper whilst still offering similar performance. Of course when it does break, you have to get a new one so it is likely that the 70s and 80s equipment will be the last to be serviceable in the distant future.

Don't know if anyone is still making it the old way!

mfirst:

 

I follow this forum since it is interesting and I am still the owner of lots of their stuff - but like many former members (Mr 10% anyone?) the love affair is gone.

 

Not sure where you got that one from - Mr 10% posted today.

I can recall the days of early 1990's. B&O was just quickly in, god that is expensive, and then out again. I can't recall seeing some of the B&O I own these days in the shops though I did have the opportunity.

I got more trouble with the audio than video department in picking out new B&O. I'm still highly in love with my collection of pre 1992 audio. I'm very happy that Dillen is living in Denmark in order to keep it working right. Beovisions are cool and repair shops got not problems in doing service on my '98 AV9000 IMP as long as I pay the price for the repairs.

Michael,

I too LOVE my B&O equipment, but as there are no B&O dealers of any kind on Vancouver Island, the closest dealer is in Vancouver, a ferry ride away, 1 ½ hours and expensive, plus that dealer has no repair facilities, only some guy who answers his phone when the spirit moves him. As such when something breaks, I need to repair it myself with the great help of BeoWorld…. or ship the item to Martin. (Who is just the best!)

McIntosh is another matter. Their products are superbly made, even today, and they stand behind them.  My 1979 McIntosh 2255 amp failed and McIntosh offered to repair it at the factory.

They first offered to sell me a new one at cost and it was a fantastic deal, but I decided to have them repair my old one.  

When my amp returned there was no bill, they said “It shouldn’t have failed in the first place, so we are repairing it under warrantee.”  A 30 year old amp fixed under warrantee, now THAT is customer service!

The B&O sound is unique and to me superior to many others, as such I “covet” a Beomaster 4400 or 8000, but either is now so old as to be in serious need or service.  

So if I was looking for a new amplifier it would unquestionably be a McIntosh, PERIOD.

Jeff

Piaf:

 

McIntosh is another matter. Their products are superbly made, even today, and they stand behind them.  My 1979 McIntosh 2255 amp failed and McIntosh offered to repair it at the factory.

 

So if I was looking for a new amplifier it would unquestionably be a McIntosh, PERIOD.

 

Jeff

Interesting comment on McIntosh....... particularly as I've found that their only UK outlet is in an adjacent  Liverpool suburb!

Although they do make complete systems they are more of a high quality amp manufacturer (using valves if you want them!)

Aesthetics are very different to B&O, yet the equipment appearance will still appeal to many.

Graham

Hi,

I am located in Montreal. We have at least 2 to 3 repair companies around that have people that are well experienced with B&O.

The official dealers are very reluctant to sell spare parts if they can't do the repairs in the first place. (excuse being the quality of work, use of original parts and warranty issues etc .....whatever...)

However the company that does some of my repairs has no problem selling me spare parts if requested. I even did send some parts through to somebody in the US as it's sometimes even harder over there to get B&O specific parts than here in Canada.

I appreciate that the B&O dealer in Montreal will sell us parts, but I very much doubt that they would have anything for a Beogram 4000. For these hard to find parts Frede at Classic Audio and Martin are a fantastic resource!

As for McIntosh, they never got into televisions being primarily a stereo manufacturer, and although their look is nothing like a B&O product, their equipment is built like a tank, more accurately over-built and I recommend them with all my heart.

I failed to mention that not only  did they completely rebuild my 30 year old 2255 amp “under warrantee", they also repaired my C-27 pre-amp also under warrantee…. and paid for the international shipping.

Jeff

Piaf:

I appreciate that the B&O dealer in Montreal will sell us parts, but I very much doubt that they would have anything for a Beogram 4000. For these hard to find parts Frede at Classic Audio and Martin are a fantastic resource!

 

As for McIntosh, they never got into televisions being primarily a stereo manufacturer, and although their look is nothing like a B&O product, their equipment is built like a tank, more accurately over-built and I recommend them with all my heart.

 

I failed to mention that not only  did they completely rebuild my 30 year old 2255 amp “under warrantee", they also repaired my C-27 pre-amp also under warrantee…. and paid for the international shipping.

 

Jeff

Well that's a service nobody can beat... good for you. I hope they'll keep up that kind of service.

I have no problem here having my 70ies beomaster 4000 fixed (by an independent but specialized electronics repair center) a year or two ago. Nor just last month my CD50 (1982?) or my old beocord for that matter. They also have fixed my beogram 5500 with a dead motor and wonky power supply and messed-up timing. They also got me a new piece of glass (or is it plastic?) for my beocord as the old one chipped. I can't complain on any level.

I also know, at the dealers, I don't have to bring in anything needing fixing that's not under warranty (they'll take a beocenter 9500 or ouverture though, but I guess nothing much older..) I know service at B&O is deplorable at best.

Frede and Martin have my highest respect for the excellent info, threads and replies they provide on this site.  Truly an asset to Beoworld and Bang and Olufsen. I learn from them every day.

I have looked up the website of Macintosh and you have to say that besides the specs there is not much there. Still looks like many 80ies black box systems to me. But this is my personal opinion, and I am sure they make really nice sounding amps with easy to fix proven standard components.

Sound is one thing (I am not in tube amps or anything exotic like that) but design and interaction is also a strongpoint factor as I totally love the beolab designs, the cd changes on be BS9000, the welcoming doors of the ouverture, the wings of the BC2 the use of beo4 and masterlink system etc.  And on a personal note there is also the fact my wife would kill me if I brought in big cases of amps and wardrobe size speakers etc .....

"I have looked up the website of Macintosh and you have to say that besides the specs there is not much there. Still looks like many 80ies black box systems to me. But this is my personal opinion, and I am sure they make really nice sounding amps with easy to fix proven standard components."

cooldude, You are quite right, good equipment and VERY expensive and a "look" that has never really changed.  I like McIntosh in comparison to other 80's box design components (second to the beomaster box systems). Unfortunately for McIntosh has about as much wife approval factor as smoking a cigar in bed after love making.

Pitty to spend that much on equipment and feel compelled to hide it, unless you like the stacked bricks (amps) between caskets speakers standing on end , that is so common in the home setup photos you see at various "audiophile" websites.

Just found McIntosh Liverpool address is registered office of distributor who is based near Chester.  Found the UK price list here. WOW! Suddenly B&O seems so stylish and good value (although I bet those valve/ tube amps are really unbeatable for quality output.)

Graham

I don't frequent any McIntosh forums, if there are any, but would guess to say that McIntosh owners do not labor over McIntosh's lack of compatability with Apple products/marketing the way B&O customers do and they seem no worse for it either. 

R Patton:

"I have looked up the website of Macintosh and you have to say that besides the specs there is not much there. Still looks like many 80ies black box systems to me. But this is my personal opinion, and I am sure they make really nice sounding amps with easy to fix proven standard components."

cooldude, You are quite right, good equipment and VERY expensive and a "look" that has never really changed.  I like McIntosh in comparison to other 80's box design components (second to the beomaster box systems). Unfortunately for McIntosh has about as much wife approval factor as smoking a cigar in bed after love making.

Pitty to spend that much on equipment and feel compelled to hide it, unless you like the stacked bricks (amps) between caskets speakers standing on end , that is so common in the home setup photos you see at various "audiophile" websites.

lmao 

My friend,  I can't add anything to that !!!....... pretty much says it all, as far as I am concerned .

As I have said, probably too often, I prefer the B&O sound, especially the Beomaster 4500.

However McIntosh is a rock solid product and they stand behind their equipment, no matter how old.

Then there is resale, it is a cold fact of life that I could sell my 500 watt 2255 amp for considerably MORE than I paid for it. You can’t say that about any B&O product.

I love the sheer power of that amp and even today the McIntosh ML-2 speakers are my favorite. They lack the crisp highs of the MC120.2 speakers, but the bass is incredible with FOUR 12” woofers, not to mention the mellow 8” mid-range.  

The fact that McIntosh has never changed their look I find a comforting reformation that they had it right in the first place.

Jeff

They used to conduct clinics at dealers that carried their products (and might still).  They had all sorts of electronic test equipment on hand to measure the specifications of components - right in front of you.  You could bring in your Brand X amplifier (or whatever) and see if it lived up to its specifications.  I guess the point was, in many cases they didn't.  In any event, I once brought my McIntosh MC2105 amplifier to one.  The technical specifications claimed it was capable of 105 watts RMS per side.  The measured results: 130 watts RMS per channel.  That's credibility..

Sorry to hear about the OP's bad experience. Either he's posted about this before or this is not the first case of a client being unable to procure a pair of Form 2 foams (or I have deja vu). It's very frustrating to hear about clients who experience the brand through some of our more careless colleagues. 

A conversation as to the merits of the gear can fill a forum, but there's no question that it deserves competent, if not outright passionate, representation. To goof up on such a basic level is absolutely unacceptable. At the very least, a pair of foams could be harvested from a new pair and replaced at the dealer's convenience so that the client is taken care of.

(And on the topic of the McIntosh gear, it's friggin' awesome. Superb build, great sound, great everything. I've got a BeoSound 5 in the field working with a McIntosh setup and it's a terrific combo)