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  • 04-21-2011 10:18 AM In reply to

    • mbee
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    I think you are not correct on this point. You can't imagine the number of high end multiroom systems where Sonos is used for audio. It's an smart choice, as it's really flexible (you can connect directly a pair of Beolab to a Sonos Zone player and get a wonderful audio quality, Sonos DAC are not bad), and it's based on ethernet, so it allows huge installation where cheap competitors sells the dream of having only a wireless audio network (wireless Sonos is not a wonderful performer too, as is Beolink Wireless).

    As the Sonos Protocol is based on a simple ethernet language, there are even companies who have developped gateways between home automation and Sonos (it should remember you something...)

    BUT Beosound 5 Encore has some other refinements, like the ability to play HD tracks (it has to be proven, but if it's not the case it would be a huge mistake), or MOTS, which is a really clever solution for huge music libraries. What Sonos has and Beosound 5 Encore won't have (never, I think) is Deezer, Last.fm and Spotify. Later, I hope that the Beosound 5 (Encore) will get the same kind of iPad interface as Sonos. Why? Just because it's good to benefit of the two kinds of interfaces : linear interface for the Beosound 5 (allowing to browse the library like a stream of music), and "object oriented" interface, with a search field for the ipad app, allowing to create a specific party playlist, for instance.
    To make a long story short : Beosound 5 interface is ideal when you don't know what you want to listen to, Sonos iPad interface (or Kaeidescape, if you're tempted to spend high) is perfect when you know what you want to listen to. Having both would just be perfect. I hope B&O has understood that. I don't want a Beosound 5 interface "copy" on their iPad app.

    Of course, there will always be a kind of customers that will never take a look at Sonos, just because "it's too cheap to be good". But the comparison really makes sense, it's clearly not a Ferrari vs Fiat comparison. If you think of cars, see it as a Tesla Roadster (the new competitor from the silicon valley with no image but a great product) vs Porsche GT3 (the good old classic which has a high image value but is challenged in innovations...). Both can go from 0 to 100km/h in 3,7s Cool

  • 04-21-2011 10:20 AM In reply to

    • Evan
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    Carpola & Stan,

    For some reason I remember there being talk about (at the very beginning) the BS5 not supporting AAC. It may very well be the DRM versions, as I cannot remember. Ah well... I'm glad to hear that AAC is included.

    Evan

     

  • 04-21-2011 2:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    mbee:

    I think you are not correct on this point. You can't imagine the number of high end multiroom systems where Sonos is used for audio. It's an smart choice, as it's really flexible (you can connect directly a pair of Beolab to a Sonos Zone player and get a wonderful audio quality, Sonos DAC are not bad), and it's based on ethernet, so it allows huge installation where cheap competitors sells the dream of having only a wireless audio network (wireless Sonos is not a wonderful performer too, as is Beolink Wireless).

    As the Sonos Protocol is based on a simple ethernet language, there are even companies who have developped gateways between home automation and Sonos (it should remember you something...)

    BUT Beosound 5 Encore has some other refinements, like the ability to play HD tracks (it has to be proven, but if it's not the case it would be a huge mistake), or MOTS, which is a really clever solution for huge music libraries. What Sonos has and Beosound 5 Encore won't have (never, I think) is Deezer, Last.fm and Spotify. Later, I hope that the Beosound 5 (Encore) will get the same kind of iPad interface as Sonos. Why? Just because it's good to benefit of the two kinds of interfaces : linear interface for the Beosound 5 (allowing to browse the library like a stream of music), and "object oriented" interface, with a search field for the ipad app, allowing to create a specific party playlist, for instance.
    To make a long story short : Beosound 5 interface is ideal when you don't know what you want to listen to, Sonos iPad interface (or Kaeidescape, if you're tempted to spend high) is perfect when you know what you want to listen to. Having both would just be perfect. I hope B&O has understood that. I don't want a Beosound 5 interface "copy" on their iPad app.

    Of course, there will always be a kind of customers that will never take a look at Sonos, just because "it's too cheap to be good". But the comparison really makes sense, it's clearly not a Ferrari vs Fiat comparison. If you think of cars, see it as a Tesla Roadster (the new competitor from the silicon valley with no image but a great product) vs Porsche GT3 (the good old classic which has a high image value but is challenged in innovations...). Both can go from 0 to 100km/h in 3,7s Cool

     

    I respect your opinion. Since you mention Kaleidoscope I agree for me the Apple TV is way cheaper and almost better than Kaleidoscope.

    With the Sonos VS. Encore the thing is not that easy. The sonos is probably a few steps ahead in terms of technology and more affordable but it is awfully plasticky and its design is not going to win any contest for sure (honestly I find it just plain horrible). In the other hand with the BS5/Encore you can see the quality of the materials, no plastic here just stainless steel and glass, the interface is superb and MOTS is awesome. In terms of price is not affordable but is not that terribly expensive.

    Let's hope B&O catchs up a little in the technology department, specially in the iTunes integration and in my opinion the Encore is a winner.

  • 04-21-2011 7:46 PM In reply to

    • mbee
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    You're correct about the materials and finish of B&O... As long as there is no dust behind the Beosound 5 glass Smile (just kidding)

    But the "ugly plasticky Sonos" is another philosophy : you just hide it on your cupboard. I NEVER see my Sonos. No problem with remote as it's only controlled over network (wifi). The ONLY thing that I see in my Sonos-ed house is a Beovision in the living room with some beautiful Beolabs, and a Wonderful pair of Beolab 8000 in my bedroom. That's it, nothing more. Plastic box? Never seen any! (you can say that the Sonos interface on iPad is not really beautiful, I would have to agree, but I'm not a big fan of the Beosound 5 "blue circle and laser" interface too).
    We would see which philosophy will be the long-term winner, but to my mind (and although I'm a big fan of hifi objects like Beosounds, I've made the jump), the hifi as an object is dead. Music is dematerialised, you only see speakers (beautiful beolabs, or invisible Beovox) in your house, no source.

    The source is anywhere, or everywhere : it can be a NAS, it can be a blu-ray, it can be the iPhone in my pocket, or the iPhone of one of my friend during a party, it can be music that I don't own on Spotify/Deezer/Whatever, I don't care, I don't care about materials, there is no material anymore. I just want to listen to something I like (here is the genius of MOTS!), with the most natural interface.

    My hifi doesn't exist anymore, music is naturally flowing in my house!

  • 04-22-2011 1:06 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    I do not like any of the Ipod/Ipad remote solutions I have seen so far.

     

    I think the BS5 has a lot of potential, I do spend a lot of attention to how I can select my music. Mots and Genius are just a piece of the puzzle.

    What good does cover art if it loads sluggish on a remote? I would but into the concept of using the BS5 for music selection but it has to be much better what I can do through a crappy 2 way remote.

     

    Also, the player needs to integrate into Itunes and it needs to behave just like any other MP3 player. No gaps in the middle of life recordings.

    Sometimes I think the Danish product designers and testes are too polite, they should just tell the engineers to eff off, give them a run for their money just like they did when the BS9000 was envisioned.

     

     

     

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 04-22-2011 6:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    mbee:

    You're correct about the materials and finish of B&O... As long as there is no dust behind the Beosound 5 glass Smile (just kidding)

    But the "ugly plasticky Sonos" is another philosophy : you just hide it on your cupboard. I NEVER see my Sonos. No problem with remote as it's only controlled over network (wifi). The ONLY thing that I see in my Sonos-ed house is a Beovision in the living room with some beautiful Beolabs, and a Wonderful pair of Beolab 8000 in my bedroom. That's it, nothing more. Plastic box? Never seen any! (you can say that the Sonos interface on iPad is not really beautiful, I would have to agree, but I'm not a big fan of the Beosound 5 "blue circle and laser" interface too).
    We would see which philosophy will be the long-term winner, but to my mind (and although I'm a big fan of hifi objects like Beosounds, I've made the jump), the hifi as an object is dead. Music is dematerialised, you only see speakers (beautiful beolabs, or invisible Beovox) in your house, no source.

    The source is anywhere, or everywhere : it can be a NAS, it can be a blu-ray, it can be the iPhone in my pocket, or the iPhone of one of my friend during a party, it can be music that I don't own on Spotify/Deezer/Whatever, I don't care, I don't care about materials, there is no material anymore. I just want to listen to something I like (here is the genius of MOTS!), with the most natural interface.

    My hifi doesn't exist anymore, music is naturally flowing in my house!

    mbee,

     

    that is something I have been thinking about this quite a lot, much as i think BS5 is very good looking hi fi, i have sonos, ipad, iphone and is very good at controlling music to flow (as you say), it makes B+O hi-fi almost redundant. would be more cost effective to buy loudspeakers!

     

    I am glad that I am not the only one to think like this.

     

    regards

    Vince

  • 04-22-2011 6:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    vlohjr1:
    it makes B+O hi-fi almost redundant. would be more cost effective to buy loudspeakers

    that is exactly the conversation we had at home today !

    can you tell the difference between a 3,000 and a 6,000 HiFi ? by how much ?

    can you tell the difference between a 3,000 and a 6,000 speaker ? by how much ?

    so spending the money on a speaker seems to be better price performance !

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 04-22-2011 7:00 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    A question for those using Sonos: how do you get around the poor sound quality? I'm a Sonos dealer, but have wound up taking several systems back because people aren't satisfied with the sound. It seems fine for low volume background music, but it's unacceptable as hi-fi. Perhaps users of Sonos don't do much active listening?

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 04-22-2011 9:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    elephant:
    so spending the money on a speaker seems to be better price performance !

     

    but if you have excellent speakers with a poor system, you will end with poor sound quality.  Good speakers can't improve poor sound input! They reproduce the sound the best they can


  • 04-22-2011 9:42 AM In reply to

    • mbee
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    That's quite After a blind test (active listening at different volume, from "normal" to high) between Sonos and CD (Beosound 2300), nobody has been able to tell the difference. I've tested that with Sonos (ZP90) directly connected (via line in) to Beolabs, and via Sonos connected to a Beosound and then to the Beolabs, again, no difference. Test speakers were Beolab 8000 and Beolab 3. Testers were me and my girlfriend, and a bunch of "audiophile fanatics" : NAIM, NAD, MERIDIAN, B&W and LINN customers (the kind of people that should never have listen to my system... But There has been some parties hosted in my living room where Beolab 3s proved that they were far better than expected by this kind of customers).

    Maybe the sound quality of a Sonos system can be deteriorated by a bad mains (that's an obvious reason, Sonos doesn't have the kind of super-continuous power adaptor with huge capacities that we find on true-hifi gear, so the mains has to be of a good quality). Or it's just the "plasticky box" look of the Sonos that makes people want to change it because "the sound is horrible".

    Or maybe it's just because your customers thought that giving poor 128kbit/s mp3.ru files would sound good on a Sonos. Sonos is not magic. My blind test was done only with lossless files.

    Now for those who don't like the iPad-only interface (iPhone interface is far worse) of Sonos, I have to agree that for volume control and standard commands, I would like to be able to control the "full Sonos" room more directly. Note that on the Sonos controller for Android, the volume buttons of your Android phone controls directly the Sonos : better. And I'm hoping that with the Beo6 I will be able to programm wifi commands to directly control the Sonos. B&O should just release a new CT Tool that allows to program wifi HTTP commands... Wait & see. But for MOTS and HD Tracks support, B&O still has the lead.

  • 04-22-2011 10:26 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    If you can hear no difference between the beosound 2300 and sonos that means they are both bad audio systems.

    The dac in the sonos is from a very poor quality.

  • 04-22-2011 2:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    I'm sorry, but I have to agree. There's just no way you're not hearing a difference. It's utterly startling even with the higher quality content streamed directly from iTunes. And the other "sources" like Pandora, etc. are barely listenable. If they'd come out with higher quality gear and some means of integrating (clients also hate the lack of interface with their video system) they'd be unimpeachable.  

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 04-22-2011 5:12 PM In reply to

    • mbee
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    Trip, I can't imagine you're honest when you write that :

    On your previous post, you where saying that it was clients returns that made you think that Sonos was of poor quality, it seems that you never actually listened to a Sonos+B&O system, now you're saying that you have HEARD the poor quality of a DIRECT stream from iTunes. That's not very fair play... And I have to repeat that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO STREAM DIRECTLY FROM iTunes to SONOS!

    I think some of you here are taking Sonos for Airport Express. In that case, I have to agree : Airport Express is of a very poor quality, that's why I tried it first, and then went for Sonos. When I do a comparison between Sonos and Airport, clearly, Airport looses everytime in sound quality, you can tell the difference with a CD without any problem.

    And concerning Sonos, I have to agree that there are better DACs on the market, but as it's equal to my BS2300... I need to go the Beosound 5 way to realise that I can have more from my CDs! You can also connect directly a ZP90 via digital coax connection to a pair of lab 5. Then you can avoid the DAC Wink  

    The idea is not to transform this thread in a kind of "cable discussion", where people spending high on cables hear a huge difference whith cheap cables, which appears to be the same...If B&O can provide us the same kind of experience as Sonos, plus better audio quality, plus better interface, it would be a good start. Today, we're waiting for a true "digital era" product.

  • 04-22-2011 5:28 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    mbee:

    And I have to repeat that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO STREAM DIRECTLY FROM iTunes to SONOS!

     

    I am confused, (and very happy with my Beosound 5), doesn't this Sonos web page say iTunes CAN be streamed to Sonos?

    http://www.sonos.com/music/partners/Default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=1033

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 04-22-2011 9:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    Yeah, I'm not sure what mbee's talking about. That's exactly where you're most likely to stream from! You can do an NAS, but most people are probably using primarily Pandora & iTunes streaming. 

    Again, I'm not saying it's a bad system, but it's not winning any converts on audio quality. Maybe you could add outboard DACs or something as people like to do to boost the sound quality of natively underwhelming devices. But that's counter to the super-simple value proposition of the Sonos. It's not meant to be an audiophile device, it's meant to give people easy access to their music the way most of them listen to it, which is in the background. 

    Everyone has their own interpretation of "good" though. B&O has urged dealers to hook up a few options around the showroom to demonstrate how digital devices from outside the family can integrate easily. This includes an AirPort Express and the Belkin Bluetooth adaptor in my showroom. I've often demoed both and although both sound pitiful (the Belkin especially) people love how the system delivers "B&O Quality Sound." Which is nonsense.

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 04-23-2011 2:30 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    TripEnglish:

    Yeah, I'm not sure what mbee's talking about. That's exactly where you're most likely to stream from! You can do an NAS, but most people are probably using primarily Pandora & iTunes streaming.

    Because you make it sound earlier, a Sonos is streaming audio over the network. "It's like saying that your headphones, once plugged into your MacBook, can decode Apple Lossless", which absolute nonsense.

    Fact is your sending data over the network from one device to the other. It doesn't matter if your using Sonos or a BS5.

     

  • 04-23-2011 4:11 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    DoubleU:

    TripEnglish:

    Yeah, I'm not sure what mbee's talking about. That's exactly where you're most likely to stream from! You can do an NAS, but most people are probably using primarily Pandora & iTunes streaming.

    Because you make it sound earlier, a Sonos is streaming audio over the network. "It's like saying that your headphones, once plugged into your MacBook, can decode Apple Lossless", which absolute nonsense.

    Fact is your sending data over the network from one device to the other. It doesn't matter if your using Sonos or a BS5.

     

    They are talking about the Sonos converting digital audio to analogue using it's internal DAC versus the DAC in the Beosound 5. Trip says the Beosound 5 has a better DAC stage than the Sonos and I suspect he's correct - I would be severely disappointed if the BS5 DAC wasn't better given the relative price difference of the two components! These internal DAC's would be used if they were connected to any B&O (or other manufacturer's) speakers via powerlink/RCA connections.

    However if your Sonos is connected digitally to BL5's then the internal DAC quality of the Sonos is (theoretically) irrelevent since it is bypassed and the final conversion is done by the BL5's. In this case it only depends on which user interface and mode of operation you prefer.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 04-23-2011 6:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    The problem with not being able to tell the difference b/t Sonos and a CD for example, is that many people today don't really know what quality sound is. Of course you can't really tell the difference if you've never educated/trained yourself in listening. In many respects for the broad mass of listeners it's just good enough. And even for some of us who thought sound quality was what we were looking for in HiFi or even high end HiFi, well, in my case I often listen to Pandora on a modded ATV or via Ipad to just any speaker.

    The thought that often comes to mind when listening to music at home is what a shame, such poor quality music, and all of the potential that is unused to reproduce great sound. Poor B&O gear in my house...

    In that respect music listening has followed other trends in society: convenience trumps quality.

    Did I just agree with Trip? I guess I did...Surprise

     

  • 04-23-2011 11:23 PM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    If I blather enough everyone will agree with me at some point. It's just the law of large numbers. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 04-25-2011 12:23 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    Talking about Sonos/Apple Airport vs. BS5 sound quality, if you use BeoLab 5 with the SPDIF socket, there will be ne sound difference at all! 

    And the irony is, as far as I know, the BS5 has no digital audio output..which means in that case that the Sonos or Apple Airport would perform better with BL5..Surprise

    I find it surprising that until now, only BS5 and BS9000 are fitted with SPDIF outputs, especially since both are soon to be discontinued or replaced.

    Going back to the topic, if B&O waits so long before releasing the Encore, let's hope it's in order to add some of the missing features we're crying for.Smile

    Reunion Island is greeting you!

  • 04-25-2011 6:22 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    see

    http://hammockdistrict.com/flacplayer/

    this brings the FLAC format to iPhone/iPod/iPad


  • 04-25-2011 8:02 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    Chrisreunion:

     

    I find it surprising that until now, only BS5 and BS9000 are fitted with SPDIF outputs, especially since both are soon to be discontinued or replaced.

     

    Is the Beosound 5 being discontinued? I thought the Encore was an additional product, not a replacement product?

     

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 04-25-2011 8:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    No word on BS5 being discontinued...

  • 04-25-2011 8:35 AM In reply to

    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    PhilLondon:

    No word on BS5 being discontinued...

    My understanding is that the BeoSound 5 Encore and the original BeoSound 5 will coexist, serving different needs according to the customer. For me, the original BeoSound 5 is ideal. I like the security and stability of having my music collection on the BeoMaster 5 and not reliant on my computer maintaining a constant connection. I would, however, like to see more functionality added to the BeoMaster 5 to make it worth the price difference. For example, navigation of n.music and n.radio via the tv even for those BeoMasters that are connected to a Beosound 5 would be nice. Also, it would be nice if B&O used the BeoMaster 5 as an access point for internet tv, offering access to NetFlix, Hulu, etc, such as most Blu-Ray players do these days. Granted, if we have such a blu-ray player we already have those features. Still, it would be a nice value added to the BeoMaster 5 with a very B&O style of interface.

  • 04-25-2011 1:05 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Beosound 5 Encore.... not until after summer !

    Razlaw:

    Chrisreunion:

     

    I find it surprising that until now, only BS5 and BS9000 are fitted with SPDIF outputs, especially since both are soon to be discontinued or replaced.

     

    Is the Beosound 5 being discontinued? I thought the Encore was an additional product, not a replacement product?

     

    I can only assume he meant the BC 2 and BS9000.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

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