This is quite an interesting thread.  

For background information there's an article on my website that you may find useful:

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/taming_wild_mastering_levels/P0/

It is writeen for audio professionals, not consumers, and it discusses the problem from the standpoint of mastering ngineers.  Nonetheless, you all may find it interesting.  

A couple of comments: the Wikipedia piece the Soundproof cited has a fundamental error, in that it confuses "loudness" with "audio level."  They are not at all the same.  This is a general media misunderstanding.  

"Loudness" is a subjective impression we have of what we hear.  Our sense of loudness, as many of you have pointed out, is under our direct control via the playback level control.  

"Audio level" is the magnitude of the audio signal PRIOR to playback.  When we complain about those levels, we are complaingin about something entirely different than "loudness", as many of you have correctly pointed out.  

The comments about changing dynamic range and tonal quality in remastered recordings are well taken.  Interestingly, many early CDs were not mastered as CDs but as vinyl discs.  Bob Ludwig has complained fairly bitterly that he was usually not allowed to "remaster" a recording for CD after he'd done the vinyl (not budgeted for), back in the '80s.  So, all the things he did to make it sound good on vinyl tended to not sound so good on CD (a different medium, after all).  We've all gotten a bit better at that, but we're still wacky about overall level (at the behest of our clients).  

I've now backed down my reference CD playback level by 5 dB, just to accomodate that nuttiness.  

I hope this is of interest.  Thanks for being concerned about thse things.  

Best regards,

Dave Moulton:

The comments about changing dynamic range and tonal quality in remastered recordings are well taken.  Interestingly, many early CDs were not mastered as CDs but as vinyl discs.  Bob Ludwig has complained fairly bitterly that he was usually not allowed to "remaster" a recording for CD after he'd done the vinyl (not budgeted for), back in the '80s.  So, all the things he did to make it sound good on vinyl tended to not sound so good on CD (a different medium, after all).  We've all gotten a bit better at that, but we're still wacky about overall level (at the behest of our clients).  

Interestingly there are quite a few albums where I prefer the 'vinyl-master-but-on-CD' version as opposed to the remastered CD version. For example, Dark Side Of The Moon (the original Remaster is horrible IMO) and Rumors. Same with a lot of The Beatles' recordings!

Dave Moulton:

I've now backed down my reference CD playback level by 5 dB, just to accomodate that nuttiness.  

Out of interest, as I really want to increase my level of knowledge about mastering, what do you actually use as a reference CD - a technical recording with test tones etc... or musical content. If the latter, what do you actually use, and how do you choose it?

Cheers.

Alex:

 

Out of interest, as I really want to increase my level of knowledge about mastering, what do you actually use as a reference CD - a technical recording with test tones etc... or musical content. If the latter, what do you actually use, and how do you choose it?

Cheers.

Read THIS and, as Dave says, visit Bob's website.

Puncher:

Read THIS and, as Dave says, visit Bob's website.

I have it, but haven't yet read it! It's on my to-do list...

Alex asked:

"Out of interest, as I really want to increase my level of knowledge about mastering, what do you actually use as a reference CD - a technical recording with test tones etc... or musical content. If the latter, what do you actually use, and how do you choose it?"  

About five years ago, I created a CD for this very purpose.  It includes some very carefully documented Pink Noise signals (including a set of octave band noise signals) plus a library of excerpts of commercially successful recordings (12 examples) and 2 evaluation sequences created for in-house use by B&O.  

Because the CD uses copyrighted materials, I do not sell it, but I do hand it out for free to students and colleagues for the kind of study that Alex is interested in, as a matter of course (it falls under the "Fair Use Doctrine of the US Copyright Law).

I'm not sure how to get a copy to you, Alex, but I'm happy to try.   Let me know if you want one.  

Best regards.

Dave Moulton:

Because the CD uses copyrighted materials, I do not sell it, but I do hand it out for free to students and colleagues for the kind of study that Alex is interested in, as a matter of course (it falls under the "Fair Use Doctrine of the US Copyright Law).

I'm not sure how to get a copy to you, Alex, but I'm happy to try.   Let me know if you want one.  

Best regards.

Hi Dave

That would be fantastic! Do you maybe have a dropbox account or online storage space where you could upload a disc image? It's be easier/cheaper than sending a copy!

Cheers,

Alex

evman140:

j0hnbarker:

Oh dear. The settings on my Beomaster 8000 are: Bass +3, Treble +5 and Loudness ON. Sometimes I even switch in a Cona from the Speaker 2 outlets...

Does this mean I'm cloth-eared?

 

Whew! I'm not alone!

My Beomaster 4500 is presently set to bass +2, treble +5, I leave loundness off in the S.STORE but often turn it on, all through my Beolab 5000 panels and twin Conas.

I love detail in my listening and lots of richness.

I just ran sound for a church gathering about an hour ago and it was all midrange. I was tuning the whole time... I understand its totally different, but still - GAG!

Hmm -after I bought a pair of Beolab 5000's (to my Beocenter 9500) 7 years ago, I've never used loudness -and my bass/treble level is 0. That's what sounds best to me.
In my younger days, when I had a Beomaster 2400 with a pair of Beovox S60 i used to set the bass +2, and the treble +1 to +2. Sometimes with loudness on.
With the the BL 5000's I just think the loudness is too much -the bass gets muddy IMO. But -It's a matter of taste (and ofcourse how your room is).
I must admit, that sometimes I could use some really deep bass - so I'm concidering buying a subwoofer.
Anyway -I could not stand listening to my music with the treble set to +5...Maybe when I get older I'll have to

Alex:

Dave Moulton:

Because the CD uses copyrighted materials, I do not sell it, but I do hand it out for free to students and colleagues for the kind of study that Alex is interested in, as a matter of course (it falls under the "Fair Use Doctrine of the US Copyright Law).

I'm not sure how to get a copy to you, Alex, but I'm happy to try.   Let me know if you want one.  

Best regards.

Hi Dave

That would be fantastic! Do you maybe have a dropbox account or online storage space where you could upload a disc image? It's be easier/cheaper than sending a copy!

Cheers,

Alex

I'd love to hear it myself - if that's possible.

Funny.  Yesterday, I was listening to Metallica's Death Magnetic (yes I know) at a friend's place and it was clipping and sounding just generally terrible.  So I looked online and found this link analyzing the CD vs the Guitar Hero version as well as this link where the engineer that mixed it poos all over the album.

Even better is when Lars Ullrich (Metallica's drummer) came out and said that it's awesome and that's how albums are done in the modern world.

Good job to Metallica for losing the loudness war.