jk1002:

What I think is funny that I don't hear anybody complaining about the price of a Rolex. I can't swing most B&O products either, to me it is a luxury item and part of that is that it is expensive. To me I don't think it matters much if they price a BV9 at 15k$ or 20k$. If they could do a BV9 at 3 or 4k$ that would certainly change something.

To me, they need to focus much more on the product then on the price. In the BS5 for example, MOTS is seen as the killer feature and it is it just got lost since Apple came out with the Genius feature and everyone takes it for granted now. Meaning, they need to run much faster and deliver more to wow. To me they should take a very good look at BS5 and take another run at it. And don't give me the crap that it is a platform for an entire family, that was said about the BC2 as well. 

It's funny to hear the almost universal chorus of opinions from BeoWorlders versus what dealers see as their core clientele. "Killer Features" are a retail animal and are just don't play into our business model any more. Lament if you like, and even I sometimes do, but the current business model, though incomplete in my judgement, offers a great deal more stability over the retail segment which changes with the wind. 

I do applaud the maturity to look beyond price, but I'm sure that there are plenty who cry and whinge over the cost of a Rolex, too. At the end of the day, the prices are fine and would have to come so far down to really please the cry-babies that it would no longer be a real B&O product. Second hand is a great alternative for the budget conscious who still want a premium product, but they should be mindful that there's the second-hand market is so desirable because the products were built to such a high standard originally!  

What would be really interesting is to understand the target market and the "typical" customer and average purchase etc. in countries such as the US, UK Germany & Denmark and how it has altered over, say, the last 10-15 years.

My feeling is that they seem to have shifted toward higher disposable incomes but to what degree and how much does it vary by market?

How typical are Trip's customers to those in Denmark?

I've no axe to grind but I think it's an interesting point and may go some way to explain many of the impasse reached when subjects such as this crop up.

How typical are Trip's customers to those in Denmark?

I would say not very typical most affluent europeans desire realistic prices, the BV9 fab though it might be is the price of a harley davidson most  people just cant see the B&O value.

The american market if its about custom installations seems very limited with the beolink systems, the american market has never really achieved the great success it should have produced for a desirable european brand.

MGBGTV8:

How typical are Trip's customers to those in Denmark?

I would say not very typical most affluent europeans desire realistic prices, the BV9 fab though it might be is the price of a harley davidson most  people just cant see the B&O value.

The american market if its about custom installations seems very limited with the beolink systems, the american market has never really achieved the great success it should have produced for a desirable european brand.

Puncher, your point is well taken, as is MGBGTV8's. I know that the markets have historically been very different, with the US trending toward larger installations and "Theater Rooms." I've thrown away the best years of my life lamenting certain aspects of the American character, but it doesn't look like we'll go for quality over quantity anytime in my life so I'll just have to stop banging my head against that wall. This means that we're playing to a very small audience here and always have been. Any success we've had as a region has come from intelligently engaging this market. Any folly as stemmed from engaging the retail customer with a retail model. 

As is often the case, car analogies are instructive. America seldom gets small premium cars because our mindset can't square the idea of a small item being worthwhile, let alone luxurious. We'd rather eat instant pudding until we're ill than have just a bite of the finest chocolate. That's just us. 

So, unlike EU which as always had a diverse video portfolio, we've been mostly audio up until this past decade and, in turn, were unprepared for audio to disappear in the wake of the iPod and have scrambled to put together a viable video portfolio at any price. Now that there's one in place it's all about dealing with the "I didn't know you guys made TVs!" remark. Couple that with an attitude toward pricing that makes even the most aggressive whinging on BeoWorld look tame and you've got a retail market that's basically sewage teeming with piranas.

Conversely, custom installation hasn't lost much steam and our products are uniquely positioned to be not only functionally competitive, but competitively priced against our competition in that niche market. Anyone who thinks it's too expensive to have a Beo5 programmed should dry their tears and have a Crestron dealer give you a quote.

If you want to buy a single television for a family room, it's tough to argue that the BeoVision 7 makes sense. Sure, some will want it, but it's like having an R8 as a daily driver. However, if you're doing a high-end residence and want total system integration between AV, lighting, managed entry, HVAC, etc. with simplified control and premium fit and finish, not only are we cheaper by a good 15-20%, but you get a BeoVision 7 on the wall instead of an LG!

That's it in a nutshell. If B&O starts building $3,000 tvs with a viable value proposition I'll sell them, but until then I'm pretty happy with the current portfolio and with what I've seen coming down the pike I'm practically giddy.  

Thanks Trip - very informative!

As I said it would be good to see a similar synopsis for a European market and how it has changed over time (and even if there has been a degree of back pedalling etc.)

Trip - the R8 is a daily driver!

Most people don't complain about the price of a Rolex for the following reasons:

• They know it will be built to last
• They know it will not be worthless in a couple of years
• They know it is made by craftsmen with the best materials possible
• They know it will still perform its function in 20 years time
• They know it will not need updating in 2 years time

I do not have any issues with pricing, I just have an issue with price per quality and longevity. I simply cannot justify spending $10,000 on a TV that will be outdated and not up to speed next year.

I know you say the prices are comparibly the same as when B&O were selling Avants, but you would be getting 10 years out of your Avant and still have something of value at the end. I imagine that a TV I buy today will need updating in (at most) 3 years. To me that is not worth the investment.

The speakers, on the other hand, are still good value for money and worth their price. You will get your 10 years out of them and have something of value after that time.

j0hnbarker:

Trip - the R8 is a daily driver!

 

Maybe for me, but not for most people. 

Re: the differences between the US and EU market...

I suspect you'll find that the average middle class person in Europe is more likely to buy B&O than middle class America.  The Europeans have, frankly, better aesthetic taste and also tend to live in smaller dwellings where the combination of size and sound are a necessary trade off.  I don't personally know anyone in the US with a B&O setup that isn't very well off.  I know plenty of people in Germany who have B&O, however.  Just a device here or there, usually a stereo, maybe a TV.  But there's plenty of it around.

I just want to clarify the "killer feature" comment. I do not mean to overload a product with functions, "eierlegendevollmillsau" as we say in germany (a pig that gives whole milk and lays eggs).

My BS2300 has the killer feature that the doors open when my hand comes close. My BC2 has the aluminum operation field and the angel wings, the tray in my BS9000 accelerates faster then some porsches and breaks if I stick my finger in. These are killer features. With the BS 5 its the CD cover navigation and MOTS. It would have been impressive but it just came too late - Iphone has it and was first to the party. 

jk1002:

I just want to clarify the "killer feature" comment. I do not mean to overload a product with functions, "eierlegendevollmillsau" as we say in germany (a pig that gives whole milk and lays eggs).

My BS2300 has the killer feature that the doors open when my hand comes close. My BC2 has the aluminum operation field and the angel wings, the tray in my BS9000 accelerates faster then some porsches and breaks if I stick my finger in. These are killer features. With the BS 5 its the CD cover navigation and MOTS. It would have been impressive but it just came too late - Iphone has it and was first to the party. 

I understand what you mean... the sliding doors and timeless design of the old 9000/9500/9300, the lifting mechanism of the Beolink 7000, the tangential arms on the Beograms.

I like the Beosystem 5, but if a friend brings over a CD to listen to your response would be something like...

"Sorry, I don't have a CD player..."

"But what's that?"

"Ummmmmm... a music center?"

"How much was it?"

"$8,000..."

"And you can't play a CD on it?"

"....nope....."

"It looks good though!"

jldmelb:

I understand what you mean... the sliding doors and timeless design of the old 9000/9500/9300, the lifting mechanism of the Beolink 7000, the tangential arms on the Beograms.

I like the Beosystem 5, but if a friend brings over a CD to listen to your response would be something like...

"Sorry, I don't have a CD player..."

"But what's that?"

"Ummmmmm... a music center?"

"How much was it?"

"$8,000..."

"And you can't play a CD on it?"

"....nope....."

"It looks good though!"

So my friend comes over with a CD to listen to and I say...

What's that!?

A CD!

What do you expect me to do with that!?

Play it on your stereo!

My stereo is a digital music server and doesn't have a CD player

Why not!?

Because it's not 1995

How much did you pay for it?

$6,500

Wow! And it doesn't have a CD player!? What a joke!

You're criticizing my digital music player and you walked into my house with CD? Seriously? A CD? Why don't we look at Microsoft Encarta and then log onto America Online? Get out.

(Just thought I'd make this dialog a little more realistic!)

haha cds still sell quite well, and are widely available. ok,

friend brings over an sd card... same response.

Memory stick? still no use. .

USB stick? you kidding?

Ipod? same story.

any form of music? sorry, gotta turn my computer on, load up Beoplayer. Connect device to computer, install software for that maybe. Transfer music to PC. Transfer music to Beosound. Sorry, can't be bothered now..

That's a minimum 15 minutes, and if it's a CD well it takes the full 70mins to add it! You can't be serious?? You talk about on demand?

Much prefer a player that you can input music into immediately, no matter what its form.

Admit it Trip, B&O is way behind the 8 ball and is not looking like catching up anytime soon. They haven't even gotten around to responding to the massive popularity of the iPod!! I have on Onkyo Integra processor that you can add a dock and control an ipod with the Onkyo remote , and that's from the early 90's!!

Well I have to say that nothing is stopping me buying B&O - apart from my wish to get the value out of current crop  (Avant 28", BV1 LS, BS4, BeoLab 6000's). That said I am planning to replace my Avant with a BV7 / BV10 to replace it as a 40th birthday splurge/present.

Yes the technology is moving at a sharp pace (LCD/OLED/3D) but for me I realise that the right time to buy is when I have decided that I want it. And yes as its B&O it won't have the bells & whistles of the technology trail-blazers but I'm happy with that. What I get is an interesting TV in the lounge - even when its turned off, a design piece.

As long as I can have a TV with integrated HD (yes we have free to air HD here) that can link to BV1LS in the playroom (not worried if its not linked in HD as the 1LS will be around for a good while and i'm not in any hurry to change the link cabling in the house) I'll be happy.

I'd ideally like to have one with the updated masterlink - but if its not out by November then hey-ho. Its not going to be a problem as the link system will continue to run beautifully ....

I'm a happy camper with my B&O (only purchasing something every 5 years I guess ) - yes its expensive, but to re-paraphrase Trip, there is a reason why we buy haighs chocolate over cadburys. They are both chocolate  - but the expensive one is soooo much nicer to experience.

I'm waiting for a LED version of BeoVision 7-40.

Sigmund

Interesting read.

Surely there are large differences between different markets. 

About Rolex and expensive watches, I'm rather sure that there's more Rolex per capita in the US than in Europe...

Hello everyone(first post!)

I think the TV market is changing at such a great pace, with rapidly changing formats and media. The sound side of things looking from my amateur background hasn't changed that much over the last 20-30 years so buying a television "frame" with the ability of changing panels as and when formats develop, but keeping a standard stand/speaker set up/ hardware base would seem a viable long term answer.

 I love the 7-40 to bits and always feel watching it is almost an occasion, but i'm very aware although updated as the mark iv it does not have an LED/LCD panel developing far greater contrasts etc. If of course i could but a 7-40 say today, knowing for a fee in 3/4/10 years time an updated panel could be regionally fitted i would be happy to invest the large sum to buy what is a beautiful COLLECTION of technology.

 The view that B&O doesn't need to market an IPhone/Ipod speaker base are ignoring one the current massive market for this type of music, and are also ignoring the younger potential future customers that could be the future B&O customers. How many of the 20 somethings today will go straight to the Bose/B&W brand when more affluent and ready for a bigger more advanced system? Secure the small business now and the future of B&O could be as secure and prosperous as those other brands. When looking for an Iphone doc i will purchase a B&W Zeppelin. There is nothing else anywhere near matching it's sound and it's cosmetics.

An FM portable radio for £400, when everything here is going digital in a few years making it completely redundant!!

 Somebody earlier was quoting the qualities of the Rolex watch, and trust me as somebody who loves feeling it's quality and heritage i'm with you. But after researching the brand i now find some of the "cheaper" models in the £3000 range have a bulk standard ETA mechanism costing $78. My Tissot costing £150 has the same mechanism as the Breitling Aerospace costing £2000!

 The problem for Rolex and back to the subject B&O is that with the internet and the huge amount of data now available, people will question spending £8000 on a B&O 10-46, when the Samsung(i know) could be bought with the same panel for just over £1000.

Regards Tonker

jldmelb:

haha cds still sell quite well, and are widely available. ok,

friend brings over an sd card... same response.

Memory stick? still no use. .

USB stick? you kidding?

Ipod? same story.

any form of music? sorry, gotta turn my computer on, load up Beoplayer. Connect device to computer, install software for that maybe. Transfer music to PC. Transfer music to Beosound. Sorry, can't be bothered now..

That's a minimum 15 minutes, and if it's a CD well it takes the full 70mins to add it! You can't be serious?? You talk about on demand?

Much prefer a player that you can input music into immediately, no matter what its form.

Admit it Trip, B&O is way behind the 8 ball and is not looking like catching up anytime soon. They haven't even gotten around to responding to the massive popularity of the iPod!! I have on Onkyo Integra processor that you can add a dock and control an ipod with the Onkyo remote , and that's from the early 90's!!

Abandoning the stilted scenario of a friend bringing either obsolete or esoteric media over to the house...

I wouldn't object to a USB slot in the back of the head unit and maybe a CD drive somewhere, but I don't think that not having those options diminish the product in any significant way. Your argument only really works when people bring outside music and while that's a sort of convenience I suppose, all of my music (which, let's face it, is why I paid so much for the stereo in the first place) is on my computer already and will be uploaded to the BeoSound 5 or AppleTV or TIVX or whatever.

A USB or SD slot is exactly the crap that I don't wont. It adds way too much complexity. 

The majority of music is managed in Itunes. Just make the integration work with that without hick ups. 

With hick ups I mean little imperfections, i.e. little gaps between music or not being able to filter out a category (christmas) in MOTS.

Adding SD or USB is just adding more variables into the formula that produce oh this doesn't work in this format or that format isn't supported. If a friend comes over just load it into Itunes. 

Each and every thread on Beoworld that tangents on these issues invariably ends up at TV prices and iWhatever. Whether that tells more of the Beoworld crowd or the direction that B&O should take, I dunno.

I do know that if I had any friends that would come over with "their music", it would invariably be on a CD.

As far as I remember, a 50 MHz i486 running Win95 would play CDs quite nicely from a CD-ROM drive in 1996 (yes, digitally, not through the D/A of the drive itself), and incidentally so do all later versions. I'm quite sure that making an external USB DVD drive ($50 at the corner shop) play CDs on the BM5 would be an afternoon hack for someone that works with developing that software. To make the feature look integrated and to work for everyone and thus supportable would of course be a bigger job...

Why don't I buy then? I do all my purchases - not just AV - on a need-to-have basis, and everything in the current selection is just too expensive to bypass that principle. I already have more older systems I could possibly put into use at the same time.

I could use a new TV, but when my MX6000 dies, I believe it will be replaced by a S* HD LCD with a three digit price tag. Can't have a TV cost more than the car that has served me well for four years

Tonker:

 Somebody earlier was quoting the qualities of the Rolex watch, and trust me as somebody who loves feeling it's quality and heritage i'm with you. But after researching the brand i now find some of the "cheaper" models in the £3000 range have a bulk standard ETA mechanism costing $78. My Tissot costing £150 has the same mechanism as the Breitling Aerospace costing £2000!

Regards Tonker

Rolex ETA movements? You are wrong about that.

               swmbo            

dilznik:

Re: the differences between the US and EU market...

I suspect you'll find that the average middle class person in Europe is more likely to buy B&O than middle class America.  The Europeans have, frankly, better aesthetic taste and also tend to live in smaller dwellings where the combination of size and sound are a necessary trade off.  I don't personally know anyone in the US with a B&O setup that isn't very well off.  I know plenty of people in Germany who have B&O, however.  Just a device here or there, usually a stereo, maybe a TV.  But there's plenty of it around.

Generalizations about taste will sometimes draw an incorrect conclusion.  There is a very simple reason B&O doesn't do very well in the US.  They don't try much.  They rarely advertise and they tend to concentrate on the same customers repeatedly.  Their target market here is the same people who go to the Artemide store or Gucci and Louis Vuitton.  Trip is correct that a lot of their business is custom installations but that started to happen in the late 90's when home theater became popular and B&O had to compete.

Would you like to guess why Bang & Olufsen doesn't do well in another very large country in the Western Hemisphere.......Brazil?  The reason is very simple. Brazil has high import taxes not bad taste!

Bang and Olufsen does very well in the EU because they have been there for a long time and everybody knows about them.  They should do well. B&O has only been in the US for about 35 years.  Having their own stores here started in the late 1980's.  B&O only wants the high end market. Middle class America whatever that means does not know Bang and Olufsen exists!

I should add there is nothing stopping me from buying more B&O.  FYI.  As a part of full personal disclosure, I do have 2 Artemide lamps.

I have been looking for the site that has Rolex watches that don't use in house movements but until then .....

http://worldofrolex.blogspot.com/2009/07/swiss-eta-movement.html 

linder:

dilznik:

Re: the differences between the US and EU market...

I suspect you'll find that the average middle class person in Europe is more likely to buy B&O than middle class America.  The Europeans have, frankly, better aesthetic taste and also tend to live in smaller dwellings where the combination of size and sound are a necessary trade off.  I don't personally know anyone in the US with a B&O setup that isn't very well off.  I know plenty of people in Germany who have B&O, however.  Just a device here or there, usually a stereo, maybe a TV.  But there's plenty of it around.

Generalizations about taste will sometimes draw an incorrect conclusion.  There is a very simple reason B&O doesn't do very well in the US.  They don't try much.  They rarely advertise and they tend to concentrate on the same customers repeatedly.  Their target market here is the same people who go to the Artemide store or Gucci and Louis Vuitton.  Trip is correct that a lot of their business is custom installations but that started to happen in the late 90's when home theater became popular and B&O had to compete.

Would you like to guess why Bang & Olufsen doesn't do well in another very large country in the Western Hemisphere.......Brazil?  The reason is very simple. Brazil has high import taxes not bad taste!

Bang and Olufsen does very well in the EU because they have been there for a long time and everybody knows about them.  They should do well. B&O has only been in the US for about 35 years.  Having their own stores here started in the late 1980's.  B&O only wants the high end market. Middle class America whatever that means does not know Bang and Olufsen exists!

I should add there is nothing stopping me from buying more B&O.  FYI.  As a part of full personal disclosure, I do have 2 Artemide lamps.

Linder if you're somehow implying that we Americans have taste... well I've just never heard such a preposterous notion!

On a serious note, though, maybe taste is the wrong word. Maybe we have a different inherent set of values left over from our recent founding. We're just fundamentally blue-jeans kind of folks and tend to see value in wither quantity for money or (in fewer instances) un-nuanced durability. Subtle, tasteful, etc. just doesn't factor into the general consumer mindset here.