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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 11-27-2010 11:35 PM by Søren Mexico. 103 replies.
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  • 11-18-2009 12:10 PM In reply to

    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    I think that theese "echo" units are built like a normal reverb tank for use with electric guitars and Hammond organs. There are 1-3 springs with pickup coils in both ends.

    -Søren

    Beocenter 9300, Beogam CD50, Beocord 5500, Beomaster 3400, Beomaster 4400, 2 Beogram 4000, Beomaster 8000, 2 beogram 8002, Beovox S-75, Beovox MS150.2, Beovox RL6000, Beovox S-35, Beomaster 6000, 2 Beocord 9000, Beocord 8004, Beocord 5000, Form 1, 2x Beolink 1000, Beo4, MX3500, LS4500. Born 1993.

  • 11-18-2009 12:21 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Yes, you are both right. This one is made that way too - we'll
    get to that.
    And Peter, if that's true go sit in the corner !
    And you too, Lee ! - A different corner !
    We can't have you two together...

    Martin

  • 11-18-2009 4:09 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    The EK4 is an echo-unit that is more or less self-contained
    and will work with almost any speaker-level output and line-level
    input but has been physically constructed so cleverly as to
    mount at the rear side of the Grand Prix 609 (and other similar
    contemporary sets) where most of its somewhat "industrial"
    design will be out of normal view.
    It has been fitted with two brackets that grip into two of the
    slots at the top of the rear cover frame and will then hang
    down there with its control knob facing up.
    On this unit, the two holding brackets are bent in a slightly
    wrong angle, probably happened during years of storage. Should be
    an easy fix anyway.
    The control knob adjusts the echo level and has a switch function
    with a distinct click when rotated to the extreme
    minimum setting.
    A cable comes out of the unit, ending in a valve-type
    (nine-pin Noval) plug that fits the socket at the rear of
    the Grand Prix 609.
    No other connections or controls are provided.

    Martin

  • 11-19-2009 10:41 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Off with the lid and let's have a look inside.
    First thing I noticed was a tiny ball of solder that came out
    when the covers were pried apart.
    So that was the little object, fine !
    Inside we find a printed circuit board with the transistor-based
    amplifier, the potentiometer with switch, the "Hammond" spring
    based reverberation element with its two tranducers and two
    pickups (all coils) and a folded post-it note.
    The latter not being part of the original construction.
    Wait a minute, a post-it note ?  That means that someone
    has been in here recently.
    Well, recently may not be the right word. A quick wiki lookup
    gave the period for the beginning of nationwide use of post-its
    as the early 1980's (learning every day), so we will have to
    extend the limits of "recently" back to around that time, I suppose.
    The note merely showed the plug connections, drawn and handwritten.
    I have all that info in the service manual already but it's very nice
    to see that someone kept info in there.
    It could just as well have come in very useful and it's
    not uncommon to find little notes and drawings like this inside
    the older pieces. Sometimes even hidden keys for whatever, other
    well-kept secrets and/or notes of more private character show up
    in old radios.

    The potentiometer looks fine, rotates with a nice slow-moving
    friction feel and switches with a nice click sound.

    The circuit board looks fine too but a closer look reveals
    the electrolytic capacitors to having more or less dried
    out and/or having cracked end caps and the larger one has
    the typical bulge outwards near its positive lead indicating
    overpressure.
    The need for a complete re-cap comes as no surprise.

    The spring element has been mounted "floating", suspended by
    glueing its metal chassis to two pieces of soft foam
    material, again glued to the inside of the EK 4 casing.
    Yes, you guessed it, the foam has rotted away, letting go of the
    whole spring element, allowing it to bump against the sides
    of the unit when tipped.
    So that was the larger rattling object.

    All in all a couple of evenings work lined up here.
    Wonderful !

    Martin

  • 11-25-2009 2:27 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    A couple of evenings were spent in the repairshop but to make
    a long story short, the spring element had as much as
    possible of the remains of the old foam removed and was glued
    back into place using two new strips of foam.
    The circuit board had a good handful of new capacitors fitted,
    the angle of the two brackets was corrected and the metal
    casing received a surface treatment.
    Much better now.

    Martin

  • 11-25-2009 3:15 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    A little difficult to photograph but it is hammer-effect lacquer, quite
    similar to the original.
    Cabinet screws were cleaned from oxidation and painted a silky black in
    perfect following of the idea of keeping as much as possible of the original
    and repair and restore rather than replace.

    Martin

  • 11-25-2009 3:28 PM In reply to

    • lausvi
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Dillen:

    A little difficult to photograph but it is hammer-effect lacquer, quite
    similar to the original.

    Wow, this is simply amazing. The cabinet looks like new! Are you going to restore the text around the knob, too?

    Bang & Olufsen - The art of controlling sound, picture and light

  • 11-25-2009 3:35 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Yes.  Laughing

    A little decal job later :

    Martin

  • 11-25-2009 3:53 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    And the center one, deliberately background toned a bit :

    Martin

  • 11-25-2009 3:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    WOW!

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 11-25-2009 7:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Double WOW +1Smile

  • 11-26-2009 10:25 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    The sharp-eyed reader will notice that the decals and brackets
    are now upside down compared to what they were originally.
    The reason is simple and why it was made differently puzzles me;
    You see, the echo unit was meant to sit vertically at the rear
    of the Grand Prix with its two brackets gripping into the frame
    woodwork, in other words with a certain side facing forward.
    The original layout of the decals was then facing the wrong way,
    readable from behind the set.

    "Why not just rotate the two brackets ?", I hear you ask.
    Well, that would solve the lettering problem but it would also put the
    cable exit from the echo unit at the other end and the cable is not long
    enough for its plug to reach the socket on the rear of the
    Grand Prix set, about 5cm short, and the positions of the sets connectors
    at the rear, including the one for the echo unit itself, does not allow the
    echo unit to go any farther left (as seen from the front).
    So, the decals and brackets were rotated to suit the fitting
    on the set and to be readable from the front.

    And thanks for the comments, yes - compared to the first photo, it does look nicer now.

    Martin

  • 12-01-2009 2:04 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Maybe one or two of the readers wonder about the technical side of things (I would):
    The two speaker outputs from the Grand Prix is fed directly
    to the speakers as it would normally be, but also to the echo unit where it
    drives the Hammond element's transducer or "sender" coil.
    The sender coil introduces longitudinal vibrations to the long springs according to
    the programme material (as if the springs were attached to the cone of a
    loudspeaker) and this "information" arrives, slightly delayed and now
    with a certain "roomy" effect at the other end of the springs where the receiver
    coil (microphone or pickup) converts it back into an electric signal.
    The longitudinal reflections from the ends of the springs also adds to the effect, with
    the signal echo'ing or reverb'ing as the waves travel back and forth the length of the spring
    and fade out as they go.
    The signal from the receiver coil is then looped through a pre-amplifier inside
    the echo unit and returned back to the Grand Prix stereo amplifier where it is fed
    to the left and right inputs in opposite phases.
    There's only one channel through the EK4. This means that the programme signal
    played by the speakers can be stereo but the echo will remain mono, though with
    reverse polarity. This will give what we today would call an "echo" effect
    plus some kind of "hall" effect at the same time.

    Making it this way means that the best effects of using the echo unit is
    achieved when playing mono material which will have a certain amount of roomy
    feel (artificial stereo) applied.
    Stereo material will still be stereo but the echo/hall effect will be mono - in
    reverse phases.
    At a time where most available records and indeed most records in your own collection would
    still have been mono, this unit would have brought a bit of modern sound to the old recordings.
    I suppose that was the big idea with this unit. A DIY-stereo conversion. Or at least something that sounds
    a bit less flat.
    - I can't wait to try this.

    What may also be obvious to electronic nerds is that the position
    of the balance control on the set needs to be rather exact.
    Any offset here can cause instability (think microphone/speaker
    feedback) and that should of course be avoided.
    For this particular reason, B&O provided a setting of the Echo-knob
    on the front of the Grand Prix to do a momentarily coupling of the
    two channels in anti-phase while you adjust the balance control for
    minimum sound output to get the exact point of equal balance.

    The choice and amount of echo can then be set on that same knob on the
    front of the Grand Prix while leaving the control on the echo unit
    set at max.
    The EK4 will also work with the Dirigent 609K and 610K where
    the same control and plug is provided.
    Owners of the (slightly cheaper little brother) Master Deluxe 609
    will not have the control on the front of the set but will
    instead be using the control provided on the echo unit itself.

    Martin

  • 12-01-2009 2:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Very good... but HOW DOES IT SOUND LIKE? ...sound like... sound like... sound like... Laughing

    -mika

  • 12-09-2009 4:39 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Well Mika, nothing like that - that - that..
    More of a hall effect than actual echo'inginginginging.....  Laughing

    A couple of sound recordings were made to demonstrate the echo unit in action.
    Both are from FM radio source and recorded "live" using the same method,
    microphones and setup as earlier in this thread.

    First recording is Elvis Presley, originally mono but play the file
    back in stereo and note the roomy "artificial stereo" hall-like sound
    as the effect from the echo unit is gradually applied and finally switched
    off again :
    http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl42943/Lyd02.mp3

    Note also that the Grand Prix makes a short thumb noise when the echo
    unit is switched completely out.

    Martin

  • 12-09-2009 4:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Brilliant! A much better effect than I would've expected Smile

    -mika

  • 12-09-2009 6:09 PM In reply to

    • henrik
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Great thread! As always, a good read! Thank you!
  • 12-10-2009 3:04 AM In reply to

    • yachadm
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Great job - Martin!

    I love that valve sound!

    Menahem

    Learn from the mistakes of others - you'll not live long enough to make them all yourself!

  • 12-10-2009 3:49 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Next recording is danish speech.
    Danes will recognize this as part of the traditional
    saturday "Giro 413" programme though with varying amounts of
    hall effect.
    http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl42943/Lyd03.mp3

    Martin

  • 12-10-2009 2:49 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Martin.  As usual, a fantastic thread, I have learned so much. Your use of plain English makes it so easy to follow.
    BTW, I think I was there when Peter and Lee commited the crime.

    Now, how can I listen to your sound clips? Left clicking just opens a blank screen.

    Kindest regards, Andy.

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 12-10-2009 5:02 PM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Andy,

    The above links are to mp3-files. (The links are in the text - it's not the photos).
    You need to have your operating system set up to associate mp3 files
    with a program capable of playing them and it will automatically launch
    that program and play the file when you click on its link.
    Alternatively, download the file to your hard-drive by right-clicking
    on the link and then choose "save target as". Choose a place where you
    can locate the file again and click "save".
    Launch your favourite sound programme (media player or similar), open
    the file you just saved and play it.

    If you have a slow internet connection, the sound files may take a moment to download.

    Thanks for the language comment. I try my best.

    Martin

  • 12-10-2009 6:44 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Cheers Martin. Used "Save target as" and played with itunes.
    Interesting hearing how the echo is generated through such a simple device.  Thanks for sharing.

    Andy T.

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 12-11-2009 5:40 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Yes, it would have been interesting to see the looks on peoples faces when some engineer first
    presented his idea of making a hall effect by sending sound through long springs.
    A bit cartoon-like, it must have felt at first I suppose, and it's still a bit ackward but it works wonderfully none-the-less.
    One thing that beats me though is that the whole echo unit is quite unsensitive to touching. Even tapping it using
    finger-force equalling that normally used on a stubborn PC keyboard has no influence on it's functionality
    and causes no new sounds to be introduced.
    All down to good filtering.

    Martin

  • 12-11-2009 5:56 AM In reply to

    • Dillen
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    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    I've been asked:

    The signal from the amplifiers sent to the speakers now contain both the original signal and the echo effect signals.
    Note that all this is sent to the echo-unit - which for the produced echo signals means "again" - so what is
    preventing this whole thing from going into a howl with the echo effects travelling round and round and never escaping ?

    Good question !
    Well, since the echo effect is mono in reverse phases, it will equal itself out as the left and right channels are
    mixed together inside the EK4, leaving only signals that are not in opposite phases = the original signal to enter
    the echo circuit.
    So the original signal will only be allowed that one trip through the EK4. As soon as it has been there, the resulting
    signals are in opposite phases and are automatically eliminated when it comes around again.
    Clever and simple.

    Martin

  • 05-30-2010 7:33 PM In reply to

    Re: Grand Prix Moderne Stereo 609

    Wonderful job you have done with that old "609" Martin. Yes -  thumbs up

    Oh, I remember my parents had one of these when I was a kid. It was probably this receiver, that started my affection for B&O. Years after, when I was about 13-14 years old I bought my first B&O -a Beomaster 901. A few years after it was replaced with a BM 2400 -which was replaced by a BM 3300 and so on... Today I have a nice little collection of B&O sets from the 70's, 80's and 90's.

    By the way - my parents speakers were in the same design as the cabinet of the radio (not like the speakers you used -though they were very nice Wink ). I also remember, my sister once had a receiver from another danish company -an "LL -Apollo". It had the same knobs as this B&O... Standard knobs fom the 60's..? Big Smile

    Well -it's always nice to read your posts. Keep up the good work.

    Steffen

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