BeoSound 5 Forum

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

XavierItzmann — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:16:33 GMT

Comments to several items posted above in the thread, in no particular order:

1. iTunes Genius uploads your playlists to Apple (anonimously). The Apple databases then builds a statistical model of what songs people have grouped together. There is no content analysis (a.k.a. DNA, bpm, rythm or what have you).

1a. A consequence is that since many people's playlists are built around an era, often he Genius will not only throw "more of the same type of music" but also much of "More of the Same Musical Age".

2. I've been using BeoPort with iTunes 8, no issues. Then again, I have two little settings I've discovered that give me an up and running system, always:

2a. Mac Mini is set to not look for system updates automatically. I found that the "you have system updates ready to install" system pop up made the Mac unresponsive to BeoPort.

2b. Mac Mini is set to shut down automatically at 3:55 am and re-boot at 4:00 am, every day. It also falls asleep after 15 mins of inactivity and wakes up the second any B&O Master Linked product is turned on around the house.

3. The Apple Genius approach is brute statistical force. It is also very Google-like (it is the same key computational insight from whence Google came about). The MOTS B&O approach is radically different. Will it be more effective?

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Stan — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:18:09 GMT

Thanks Puncher and 10 Percent. This MOTS discussion has been an interesting.

To the earlier "Genius" suggestion, I haven't bothered with "Genius" for a couple reasons. First, I'd rather not upgrade iTunes because, from time to time, I've had problems with BM-Link "getting lost" in my iTunes library. BM-Link has not been getting lost lately so I don't want to change anything. Also, much of my music I recorded from vinyl so the tags (being entered by hand by me) are minimal, and I assumed that Genius mostly worked with tags (and I don't always agree with the Genre assignments that come from the Internet when I rip a CD).

Finally, fiscal reality has set in... I don't think I'm prepared to pay the price just now... as long as I stay away from the store, I'll do fine...

Stan

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Clakke — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:53:50 GMT

I must admit that if MOTS is good or not has absolutely no impact on my decision not buying this thing at this price.

Have a good day

Clakke

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Bv7Mk3 — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:32:07 GMT

No Bob the Builder then

Can't wait to get my Beomaster 5 unit. willbe using it with a Bv7-40mk3 tv.

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Puncher — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:17:22 GMT

Interesting - of the two I think I would prefer to list through my list - but then I would, I bought them because I like them

I think the thing is that they both pick stuff that is vaguely related, rather than a completely random shuffle-type playback, both are capable of picking stuff you not have heard for a while and therefore are probably both useful in the right circumstances.

Is one really better than the other - it depends if you like the music they pick!

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Mr10Percent — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:12:18 GMT

No, this was direct from MOT's on my BS5 with a Ziggy Stardust "Seed"

No itunes...Windows Man!

10%

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Puncher — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 03:21:01 GMT

Mr10Percent:

As a quick comparison, this is what I got when seeding Ziggy Stardust.

I did not listen to it for musical similarity and of course, I will have a number of completely different albums to Puncher (and visa versa).

1

Ziggy Stardust

David Bowie

2

Gap

The Kooks

3

Rock & Roll Suicide

David Bowie

4

Nikita

Elton John

5

She's Only 18

Red Hot Chili Peppers

6

I Wish

Brinkman

7

D'yer Mak'er

Led Zeppelin

8

Conversation

Eagle Eye Cherry

9

Trust Me

Janis Joplin

10

Stinkin Thinkin

Happy Mondays

11

Leaving Las Vegas

Sheryl Crow

12

The Keys To Her Ferarri

Thomas Dolby

13

She Looks Like Me

Red Hot Chili Peppers

14

To Be Free

Simply Red

15

The Garden Of Allah

Don Henley

16

Revolution

Robbie Williams

17

Danci Clown

Joni Mitchell

18

Now She Knows Shes Wrong

Jellyfish

19

Modern Mafia

Athelete

20

Diamonds On The Inside

Ben Harper

21

Big Apple

Kajagoogoo

22

Seven Days

Sting

23

Anxiety

Black Eyed Peas

24

You Gave Me Something

James Morrison

25

Crazy Thing Called Love

Queen

The Doors, Pink Floyd and the The Police – which I have many albums, did not for feature in my queue list.

Was this from your BS5 or from your iTunes?

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

jk1002 — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:26:49 GMT

>>I'm not sure Genius only picks from favourites <<

I think it picks from other peoples favourites. I am guessing they analyze albums and playlists that are saved in itunes.

I don't mark up favorites in my library and I used a "rare" but catchy song from the hotel costes cd collection (which is not so rare) and it found reasonable matches for my genius playlist. I am sure there are not many CDs out there featuring this song , so I am guessing it got matches out of playlists that people have stored.

It's a nice throw in feature for me but not a "buy" driving decision.

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Mr10Percent — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 05:49:49 GMT

As a quick comparison, this is what I got when seeding Ziggy Stardust.

I did not listen to it for musical similarity and of course, I will have a number of completely different albums to Puncher (and visa versa).

1	Ziggy Stardust	David Bowie
2	Gap	The Kooks
3	Rock & Roll Suicide	David Bowie
4	Nikita	Elton John
5	She's Only 18	Red Hot Chili Peppers
6	I Wish	Brinkman
7	D'yer Mak'er	Led Zeppelin
8	Conversation	Eagle Eye Cherry
9	Trust Me	Janis Joplin
10	Stinkin Thinkin	Happy Mondays
11	Leaving Las Vegas	Sheryl Crow
12	The Keys To Her Ferarri	Thomas Dolby
13	She Looks Like Me	Red Hot Chili Peppers
14	To Be Free	Simply Red
15	The Garden Of Allah	Don Henley
16	Revolution	Robbie Williams
17	Danci Clown	Joni Mitchell
18	Now She Knows Shes Wrong	Jellyfish
19	Modern Mafia	Athelete
20	Diamonds On The Inside	Ben Harper
21	Big Apple	Kajagoogoo
22	Seven Days	Sting
23	Anxiety	Black Eyed Peas
24	You Gave Me Something	James Morrison
25	Crazy Thing Called Love	Queen

The Doors, Pink Floyd and the The Police – which I have many albums, did not for feature in my queue list.

Interesting or irrelevant? You decide.

10%

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Puncher — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:02:47 GMT

I'm not sure Genius only picks from favourites - I suggested Genius as a possible solution to Stan's earlier posts, I've never used it in anger myself. I did try it when first released and, when I tried to confuse it i managed quite successfully. However I've just run it again from a library of 3300 songs and seeded it with "Ziggy Stardust", the resulting 25 track playlist is shown below. It's not actually a bad attempt and I would certainly listen to all, there are some there that will hardly have been played in the time they've been on my iPod and so won't be in the "favourites" list.

I'm not saying it's better (I haven't played with MOTS) but will the MOTS playlists be that much more listenable? - it obviously is going to depend on the music catalogue and the seed track. MOTS may indeed be more consistent in it's selections around the periphery of your catalogue, I can't really say, hence it would be nice to see some real comparisons. In this particular case though I would have to say I would be quite happy with Genius' effort (other than the Queen track, obviously)

As another example if you "seed" a DJ with a track, and the same catalogue, how will his playlist develop? I'm sure Fatboy Slim's will be different to Carl Cox's - which is better - it will boil down to your own personal preference I suspect, although both will be valid.

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

KibitoCH — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:49:02 GMT

Genius works diffren't. Apparently it only plays from your favorites, kinda like it learns what you like to listen.

While MOTS compares all songs available and makes a list of the most matchhing ones. This technique adds songs you diden't even remember you have on the Harddisk.

And based on how they explain'd it. It whould do the same list each time you take the same song, until you add more songs wich might be near the same fingerprint. I haven't tested it yet though.

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Puncher — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:35:17 GMT

It would be a very interesting experiment to see real playlists generated by MOTS and iTunes Genius based on the same music catalogue - I'm sure they will be different.

Any volunteers?

edit: another question, does the MOTS system return a different playlist ever time it is seeded with the same song selection?

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Russ — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:42:05 GMT

Puncher:

Ah well............. of course there's alway iTunes Genius, not infallable but can generated playlists which will be ~90% of the way, a quick edit and save and you can have party, chill, work etc playlists that you can tweak as you go forward.

Not the same I know but 6K cheaper

I'm not certain that it's as close as is implied or inferred in these forums. Allow me to use myself as an example:

About a year ago, I was getting ready to host a quiet dinner-for-two at the house and it being prior to iTunes 8(Genius), I spent well over an hour carefully combing through my iTunes library searching for 'appropriate' music. To be clear, my inspiration was Jefferson Starship's 'Miracles' from the Red Octopus album. So I was looking for swoopy, jazzy, kinds of things...you know.

I feel confident, due to experience in the meantime, that the iTms Genius would have pulled a lot of my Allman Brothers, ELO, and Huey Lewis...and would have noted that I should purchase 'We Built This City on Rock & Roll' or 'White Rabbit'. All well and good based on the data tags associated with 'Miracles', but clearly not what I was looking for. In short, I'm pretty certain that 'editing' the Genius playlist would have involved pressing the 'delete' key at some point.

MOTS, in the time I've had to play with it, seems far more likely to have found tracks that went in the direction I intended to go, and especially tracks that I would not have thought of, considered, or perhaps even remembered.

I think we need to begin recalibrating our thoughts on the BS 5 along the following line: One can order a dish at a restaurant, and think simply that 'red wine goes with beef' and just ask for a glass of the house selection, or the same old red one always gets...or one can consult with a sommolier...more expensive of course...assuming the restaurant even has one...but that's where the price/value question really leads.

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Puncher — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:03:08 GMT

Ah well............. of course there's alway iTunes Genius, not infallable but can generated playlists which will be ~90% of the way, a quick edit and save and you can have party, chill, work etc playlists that you can tweak as you go forward.

Not the same I know but 6K cheaper

Re: Are you prepared to pay the pirce for the new BeoSound 5

Stan — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:18:02 GMT

Puncher:

Am I wrong in thinking you can "party shuffle" within playlists in iTunes?

Does this help you do what you want?

(Just select your required playlist from the "source" tab).

You are correct that "party shuffle" works within playlists. The problem is that it is up to me to create the playlist. Somehow, I always seem to pick many of the same songs whenever I create a playlist (usually under a time constraint because the party guests will be arriving soon). I have ~400-500 CDs (and digitized albums), but mostly listen to ~200 songs. It's become so bad that even my wife is critical (you've got so many CDs, why do you always play those same songs?).

I believe part of my challenge (aside from being lazy and unorganized) is that I've never paid much attention to the names of songs. Pop in the CD and listen, why clutter one's head with the actual track lineup? Now, when I go back to a CD I haven't listened to in a few years, I must listen through it to remember which songs I really liked and which songs fit the genre of music I'm putting into the playlist. There are a couple problems with this: 1) once I listen to the CD to find the songs I like... well, then I've just listened to it and maybe I don't want to listen to it again right away (my mind does work this way - it likes to be surprized with songs that it has forgotten about), and 2) it takes a lot of time. Nothing wrong with that, but I just haven't found the time to search my music library for the many hidden gems that I'm sure are in there. I'm hoping MOTS might help here. This does seem to be the problem it was designed to solve.

Can I live without it? Sure. Is ~6K a lot of money to pay to solve this problem? Sure. Would I prefer it be less expensive? Yes, again. Might I buy it anway? Perhaps. Still trying to get my head around what it can and cannot do. I must say that I was quite negative about the product until I played around with it. It has grabbed me (at least until my senses come back and remind me what other far more pratical things I could spend that much money on).

Stan