BeoGram

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Piaf — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:35:46 GMT

Hi Peter,

A most interesting read, if somewhat above my meager ability to comprehend technical material.

I have done many things that have not entirely helped my records over the years. A new record cleaning kit is the least of my omissions.

I see that I may well have some very worn styluses and that is affecting the sound quality of my various Beograms.

I need to address these issues in the near future.

Jeff

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Peter — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 06:46:27 GMT

You may like this article.http://www.micrographia.com/projec/projapps/viny/viny0000.htm

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

tournedos — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:59:22 GMT

Piaf:

As for the black case, it just really puts me off. I may well reconsider this objection, but I plan to first have my MMC20CL’s and MMC6000 rebuilt to see if they really do sound like they did when they were new.

I'm a strong advocate of not fixing things that aren't broken. As I understand, you've been quite happy with those cartridges, so why rebuild them? As the styli do wear, I don't see much point in putting the old cantilever/stylus back (not sure if Axel is able or wants to do that anyway), so you would be essentially throwing them away.

I'd much rather buy new broken or obviously tired cartridges and have them repaired. Then you'd have something to compare to as well.

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Piaf — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:17:16 GMT

Hi Peter,

As mentioned before, the MMC6000 was a gift from a fellow B&O collector in California and it was/is a huge improvement over the MMC4000 that I initially used on the Beogram 8000.

While I can not begin to match your expertise in regard to B&O products I am a bit surprised to read that the diamond styluses wear vis a vis the suspension hardening. Diamonds are the hardest substance known to man and placed against vinyl should in theory (and practice) fare extremely well by comparison.

I am not suggesting that diamond styluses do not wear at all, but they should last a very long time considering the tracking pressure they are under.

In regard to Soundsmiths aiming at the CD generation I am MUCH less inclined to try one of their fine products.

True, it is the high end that suffers first as these cartridges age but as a “typical” American (now living in Canada) I greatly value a hearty bass response as much as the high end.

Perhaps it is as Axel and you feel, my cartridges have worn diamond styluses which is why they sound somewhat muted and overly mellow. My jeweler’s loop is only 10X and I very much doubt it would show me much of value in inspecting the styluses….. plus other than dull worn spots, I wouldn’t know what to look for.

I will also like to add that I was more than satisfied with my “collection” of three MMC20CL’s until I acquired the MMC2 which is just so much more crisp with piano and guitar. Having said that, the MMC6000 does a marvelous job with organ symphonies…. Ditto the MMC20CL’s.

Jeff

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Peter — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:24:32 GMT

Piaf:

As a jeweller I can tell you that it is very unlikely that the diamond needle is going to wear significantly, especially with the light tracking force of the B&O line, more likely it is the suspension that hardens and that compromises the sound quality.

Jeff

I know what you mean, but the styluses do wear - MMC6000s seem particularly prone to this. It may be related to the actual diamond profile in this case. Interestingly, Axel is less convinced about suspension issues from what I understand.

Soundsmith do offer a range of cartridges and do also offer cartridges tuned to suit different tastes. The standard range do seem to be designed to appeal to the CD generation with much attention to top end detail.

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

chartz — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:54:09 GMT

Hi,

My point was that digitally recorded LPs sound like CD. Analogue records sound beautiful, way better than CD. For ex. even my old well-worn The Wall LP from 1980, played hundreds of times, sound much better. How could it be otherwise? And you know that these days, non-audiophile LPs are made using... the CD version!

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Piaf — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:08:47 GMT

For me saying a vinyl record sounds like a CD represents a rather misguided compliment as while I admire the crispness of the CD, I find them clearly less “real” sounding to that of a good vinyl recording.

The sound of a CD seems compressed to me and as such a bit artificial as compared to a vinyl record which sound genuinely accurate. You can close your eyes with a record and the singer or orchestra sounds if it were in your living room.

I doubt very much that anyone can make the same claim with any CD….. and less so with a MP3 player.

As for the black case, it just really puts me off. I may well reconsider this objection, but I plan to first have my MMC20CL’s and MMC6000 rebuilt to see if they really do sound like they did when they were new.

As a jeweller I can tell you that it is very unlikely that the diamond needle is going to wear significantly, especially with the light tracking force of the B&O line, more likely it is the suspension that hardens and that compromises the sound quality.

Jeff

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

MoltenLava — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:45:37 GMT

I'm not sure how I feel about vinyls sounding like CDs. I'm still waiting for my Sound Smith 20CL. It's been three weeks and the suspense is killing me. It's better be good!

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

chartz — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 05:15:20 GMT

I understand the "blackness" argument about Soundsmith cartridges. But I love my SMMC20EN. It sounds gorgeous, but it is unforgiving to so-so records. Also digitally recorded ones sound like CD! I too was contemplating having my CL re-tipped by Axel for € 159, but I don't need it anymore now.

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Piaf — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:38:54 GMT

Groan or hum….. I suppose it hums, so I stand corrected.

By the way you are NOT interfering as we all appreciate input on this site. How else are we to learn?

I am going to try lubricating the bearing to see if that helps. In any case, it is not a big issue.

I don’t know why anyone would put down the 8000 series Beograms as they are excellent turntables by ANY standard I know.

Mine is a total ***, sort of a Beogram Frankenstein. My original failed to perform and I was convinced (incorrectly) that it was the power supply. I misguidedly attempted to open up the 8000 from the back, managing only to break the plastic tabs. (Beyond stupid)

I then took it to a shop that assured me they knew how to repair it; they didn’t, and returned it to me in pieces.

Two more repair shops and the 8000 was basically toast.

My good B&O buddy from California offered me a tattered, but marginally functional 8000, so I used its back panel which had all the tabs in tact and the mechanicals with my pristine shell and dust cover.

The combined 8000 functioned for several months before developing a smoking problem. This issue was corrected by Martin who rebuilt the motherboard.

So now I have a completely functional 8000 with a MMC 6000 that has as you said the bass is exaggerated, but with my 120.2 speakers, the extra bass is more than welcome. In fact I think the bass sounds wonderful….. but the highs are well, just not stellar.

If I want highs I choose the Beogram 8002 with its MMC2 cartridge.

Having “survived” the disco era my hearing is marginal at best, however I still find the 102.2 speakers a bit too crisp in the high end for my taste. Hence my fondness for the big McIntosh ML-2 speakers which have super bass with 4 12” speakers, decent mid-range with 8” mid-range speakers, and an assortment of three tweeters that somehow never were all that good at the high end.

I especially like the combination of the McIntosh speakers with the Linn Isobarics which add the missing highs the Macs just don’t have.

So after all is said and done, the Beogram 8002/MMC2 is overall my best sounding turntable. Take that those who would put down these fine turntables!

Still, reverting to Peter’s words, my favourite turntable is the Beogram 4000 which trounced all others until the arrival of the MMC2. The MMC20CL, which I now believe was in the Beogram 8000 has recently suffered a hardening of the suspension.

When I feel like spending some real cash, I think I will try having my 3 MMC20CL’s and the MMC6000 rebuilt in Germany. I understand that the results are stunning and the case will be silver B&O stock, not the black of Soundsmiths.

Jeff

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Peter — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 06:29:40 GMT

Sewing machine oil sounds fine - no doubt you can buy special turntable bearing oil but it will be oxygen free or something and cost more than printer ink!

I have not had a decent one for a few years, but the MMC6000 was always my favourite cartridge - it has a treble lift right at the top end when the stylus is in perfect condition that when I was younger was most attractive to my ears. Wear and increasing loss of high frequency hearing would no doubt mean that this would no longer be the case though!

20CLs do very quite a bit in my experience - they don't all look the same down a microscope either. I am still quite tempted to get a 20CL+ from Soundsmith - waiting to see what Soundproof's take on these are. Just wish they would make a silver one!!

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

chartz — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 05:37:09 GMT

Sorry to interfere again!

Just to confirm the Beogram 8000 is a superb deck that trounces ALL the other turntables I've possessed (Dual, Thorens, Barthe, Technics just to name a few). Pity so many people just look down on them. Whenever I tell people from the hi-fi community about B&O stuff, I just get a loud laughter, "yeah right" sort of despising denial. But hey at least we can play an LP from beginning to end of side, not them mind you.

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Piaf — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 05:17:19 GMT

Peter,

Before I even began writing this piece, I anticipated your reaction.

I know that electronics do NOT improve with age…… nothing does other than wine, and pizza the next day.

In regard to your suggestion I have given a good deal of thought to swapping the two cartridges just to see how they compared. However I have had such a tremendous amount of trouble in adjusting the tonearms of my various Beograms that once I had them “right” I have been more than reluctant to “mess” with them.

Just pulling one cartridge out and replacing it with another can affect the sound quality and the 4000 sounds so good that I just don’t want to do anything to spoil it.

I am certain that this was not the case when these turntables were new…. but they aren’t new anymore. As I get older, everything that I love tends to be antique.

Back to my original question and the 8000, I was gifted with the MMC6000 and had no practical use for it until Martin restored my Beogram 8000.

God help me, but I do not remember which cartridge came with any particular Beogram…. However, I DO recall that I was also gifted with a MMC4000 that my good friend from California thought would be the prefect match for the Beogram 4000…. sadly I didn’t share this opinion.

That MMC 4000 was then installed in the Beogram 8000 with completely unremarkable results. As a result I found myself rummaging in my parts bin for something better when I discovered the unused MMC6000 and was more than pleased with the change from the MMC4000….that is until I acquired a MMC2 for my Beogram 8002 and the Beogram 8000 with its MMC6000 initially suffered by comparison. (They share the Beomaster 4500, so any comparison is easy and instantaneous.)

However with a good deal of use, the BIG divide in sound quality has lessened remarkably.

Now I am NOT saying that the Beogram 8000 with its MMC6000 is the equal to the Beogram 8002 and its MMC2….. not by a long shot. The MMC2 delivers delightful highs that the MMC6000 can barely dream about. However in the bass area, the 6000 now really holds its own.

I have been listening to a superb recording of E. Powers Biggs playing Bach, as only he could and the sound quality from the Beogram 8000/MMC6000 is right up there with the absolute best. (This has surprised me so much that I wrote this piece for BeoWorld.

Perhaps I am really “losing it” but I swear the sound quality for this MMC6000 has improved since I first installed it.

True, I wouldn’t want to compare the high end with either the Beogram 8002/MMC2 or the Beogram 4000/MMC20CL but I do believe it sound better overall.

As for the Beogram 8000 groan, I have used sewing machine oil to lubricate my various 4000 series turntables. I assume the same oil would be appropriate for bearing you refer to. Right?

Many thanks!

Jeff

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

chartz — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 04:27:40 GMT

Hi,

Piaf:
One last question, my resurrected Beogram 8000 groans when the START button is depressed and I assume this is the sign of a tired motor. This Beogram functions flawlessly in all other respects. This groan only lasts about 2 seconds and never occurs except at start.

Are you sure it groans? Doesn't it just hums? For a 8000/6006 to hum at startup or when it brakes is perfectly normal.

As for cartridges, what a shock I got when I listened to my new SMMC20EN after my old warm MMC20EN! The ageing suspension possibly producing overblown bass and falling treble response, even though the stylus was perfect.

Re: Cartridge Exercise?

Peter — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 03:55:18 GMT

The first thing I would do is swap your two CLs around and see if the 'bad' one sounds the same. It may just have worse suspension - I think the suspension hardens with age so the treble drops personally but others may have different experience.

The 8000 does not have a motor as such, just some coils, so the groan must be the bearing - maybe it has dried out a bit.