General Forum

Re: Independence.

tournedos — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:47:11 GMT

I've stayed out of all these "political" discussions, as I didn't come here to fight or to see others having a fight. Anyway, now I feel I'll say something.

If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't have my three quarters of a Beosystem 6500 - I probably couldn't have fixed them without invaluable help from here, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to pay the prices that working examples regularly fetch. (and I've even made a living as an AV electronics designer, but these old B&O items have their quirks...). Not to mention the VX5000.

So, in a twisted way one could say that even I have made money on Beoworld, or at least avoided losing some. I couldn't care less if the owners make money out of this, even if my humble writings contributed to it; actually I hope they did, rather than lose.

It was only after the fact that I upgraded my bronze membership. The cost of silver will only get you a couple of service manuals on eBay, and gold wasn't much extra. And remember, anyone can read the forum without joining at all!

As to the current moderator crew, I trust them fully to do the sensible and right things. I'm sure anyone can learn to disagree without being rude. It's only electronics and software we're dealing with here, after all...

-mika

Re: Independence.

j0hnbarker — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:09:34 GMT

Fair enough to both Peter and Chris.

I agree that insults have no place here, having almost crossed that line myself a couple of weeks ago.

Re: Independence.

Medogsfat — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:56:28 GMT

John I agree entirely with you which was the reason I answered Simons original post in an attempt to show him nothing was being hidden furtively.

What I don't particularly like is uninformed insinuation and was the reason behind my rather more heated reply, I would like to think my voice has just the same right of hearing as his. Personal insults have no place on this community though and is made quite clear to anyone registering.

Chris.

Re: Independence.

Peter — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:41:04 GMT

The questioning of independence is not really the issue. I could have ended this thread but have not as we would rather things are above board. Simon is quite entitled to his views and this is not what i removed. I have sent John a PM which explains my actions and hope he agrees with them. I think a couple of posts went further than they should have and those are the ones I removed. Neither were actually related to the subject of independence but were personal attacks which in my view reflected badly on the individual members and were hopefully said in anger and with the benefit of time would be regretted. Neither post would be relevant to this discussion and hence I don't think I stamped on the thread. I do feel that we are entitled to defend our positions though.

Re: Independence.

Kevin — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:06:51 GMT

"It's a relatively straightforward thing to ask, and I know there is a fine line between questioning the notional 'independence' of the site, and that this does risk spilling over into questioning the honourable motives of many of those involved here, but every time this topic has come up since Lee bought the site we've had various members shouting down those who raised the question in the first place."

There was absolutely no reason why the question shouldn´t asked, (again), the way it was asked was to me offensive (as it directly questioned my motives in being a moderator on the site) and designed to have a go, rather than enter a debate, vigorous or otherwise.

I think a certain amount of perspective is required here too. This is a web site / forum not real life.

Re: Independence.

j0hnbarker — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:41:51 GMT

The Beonic Man:
It has been fun and I know that I voice a great many views that people have but might not say. I like saying them because its honest and straight to the point, a Greek trait and one that I am proud of. All the best.
Simon.

Simon

You and I might have differed over our opinions of the BV7, but I do understand where you're coming from with some (please note some means not all - for all the sensitive souls out there) of the points you raised here, and I would like to offer you some support. I don't know what was said in the deleted posts on this thread, and if it was a trade of insults then perhaps a quick visit to an exchange that Moxxey and I had a couple of weeks ago about the BV7 should be a guide to the best way to call it quits when things get too heated, but I don't see why you can't question whether a site that charges membership fees to those that wish to pay them is not completely 'independent' of any outside influences. It's a relatively straightforward thing to ask, and I know there is a fine line between questioning the notional 'independence' of the site, and that this does risk spilling over into questioning the honourable motives of many of those involved here, but every time this topic has come up since Lee bought the site we've had various members shouting down those who raised the question in the first place. Personally, I don't have a problem with the original post, and I find it disappointing that this thread will end up like all the others covering this topic. Lee himself has never stamped on these posts. Indeed, quite the opposite in most cases, where he has clearly set out the realities of running Beoworld at a loss from his own pocket with honesty and good humour. The stifling of this kind of discussion does make me question though whether I will renew my membership next month. I'm not involved with other discussion forums to the extent I am here, and perhaps any questioning of ownership/independence/moderation of posts would elicit similar responses elsewhere, but I have been thinking for a while that I might like to step back a little from participating here until my thoughts have become clearer, and the reaction to your post has certainly given me food for thought.

I have benefitted personally from the generous support, advice, and donations of equipment from many of the prominent members of this forum, but I for one am unhappy when a single poster gets shouted down to this extent. I have read most of your posts and though I have disagreed with some of the things you have said (BV7 - we'll have to agree to differ) I cannot think of any where you weren't pleasantly courteous to all involved (me included).

Re: Independence.

Craig — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:16:49 GMT

Flappo The Grate:

they don't look for plaudits or financial recompense
they do it because they enjoy it
and they enjoy other people enjoying it , too
it's a kind of 'feel good factor'

Flappo, I do believe you have just hit the nail on the head. Well said.

Craig

Re: Independence.

Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:09:50 GMT

Peter :
Actually Beoworld runs at a loss. The subscriptions come nowhere near to covering the cost of running the site and it is only the small amount of advertising on the main site that makes us come close to solvency.

I am very sad to hear that. I think hard work and quality should be rewarded. What would be wrong with the owner making a profit? I for one am happy paying my gold membership just for the automatic entry into the prize draw. I wish this site every success in the future and if that means a profitable one, then more the better.

Re: Independence.

Flappo The Grate — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:07:06 GMT

it's hard to believe , but some people can't accept that there are actually individuals that do things for the common good

they don't look for plaudits or financial recompense

they do it because they enjoy it

and they enjoy other people enjoying it , too

it's a kind of 'feel good factor'

there's been something in the news recently about how giving things to others makes you happier than getting gifts yourself

that's what peter and his friends do for us ( peter is also a doctor - and they're wonderful giving people too in my experience )

they give without asking anything in return except we behave ourselves and we enjoy ourselves

how on earth can that be anything but a wonderful thing ?

Re: Independence.

wirralsimon — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:57:23 GMT

Across the internet there are many forums that are run by honest individuals with no ulterior motive that to help other individuals.

I am not a moderator here, but I am a moderator on a forum for children and adults with Autism and their families and carers. You could say that I have a vested interest in that two of my children are on the Autistic Spectrum and it helps me to have that interchange of ideas witrh parents, but I give my time freely and if there is any potential for reward from moderating the forum I am at a loss to think what it might be. The forum is enturely financed by the people who orginally set it up who have refused my repeated offers of financial assistance and the forum carries no advertising of any kind.

Likewise I have always felt that the people running this form are first and foremost B&O enthuiasts and they give their time freely becuase of that enthusiasm and because there are some good people here. I would also suggest that if Lee is doing this to make money he could find more efficient ways of doing it as I would guess that Lee doesn't make any money at all from Beoworld and the value of prizes probably exceeds subscription revenue by some margin.

I think it sad that some people find it so hard to accept that there are good people out there who will do 'something for nothing', in that sense Beoworld is typical of many forums out there, and I am at a loss to understand why it has been singled out for all this unproductive sniping.

Simon

Re: Independence.

Peter — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:40:33 GMT

Actually Beoworld runs at a loss. The subscriptions come nowhere near to covering the cost of running the site and it is only the small amount of advertising on the main site that makes us come close to solvency. No-one at Beoworld draws any money from the site - all the moderators are unpaid and always have been. The only person who has ever made any money from this site was the original owner.

There are a number of B&O dealers on site - and they are most welcome. Some are happy to post under their real name and others post under pseudonyms. Many offer excellent advice to other members on here and we are most grateful for this.

In addition, there are a number of re-sellers on site. They do not advertise on site as we have tried to make this site free of advertising as far as possible. You will notice that there is no advertising on the forum at all. This has caused some disagreements in the past and I dare say is not universally popular. However those of us who can remember the old B&O Message Board will remember that this became unusable due to unregulated advertising.

There are other B&O sites but I think this one offers the friendliest atmosphere as well as the quickest and most helpful answers available. Despite insinuations to the contrary, we are independent of B&O though clearly, as an enthusiast site, we try not to damage the interests of B&O. We are not above criticising though and I believe that B&O value some of the more forthright posters opinions.

I will personally support the freedom of anyone to speak their mind as long as it is not insulting or damaging. If you have complaints about the site or any member, whether they be a new member or a moderator, do approach one of the moderators and we will try to address your concerns.

Re: Independence.

soundproof — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:32:28 GMT

Greek or not - what's with the aggression? I don't see that as fortright or candid at all. Just stirring the pot? Or arguing over how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

You write: There is no doubt that Beoworld is a serious threat to the official B&O dealers and while some support it I know most don't. There is the fear that wrong information is spread through the forum and this ultimately always comes back to the dealer to have to explain and put right.

How on earth can BeoWorld be a threat to the official B&O dealers? Wrong information? B&O are free to correct whatever information is entered here, immediately, as are all the dealers. If someone here points out that things could be better, or that a B&O solution may not be top notch, then that information is not wrong -- it may be inconvenient, but it could also be the truth. If not - correct it.
And B&O should thank its lucky stars that someone bothers with BeoWorld. Post a question at the official site and you'll get a pretty useless answer, after a long wait; post it here, and you'll get an informed one in a few minutes - which matches marketing claims against real world experiences. (In comparison, the B&O Wednesday chat sessions that Coolskin likes to post read like an absurd play by Pirandello.)
People are getting their systems working with ten minutes of assistance here, and are often spared having to wait for dealers to come and correct the problem.

This site practises instant correction or emendation. Just the other day I suggested that the Beomaster 6500 was one of the finest amp's in the stackable range, Peter voiced his doubts and raised the 5000 to championship level. That's how an enthusiasts' site works. Evaluate the information, consider it, do what you will with it.

B&O needs BeoWorld -- all premium brands need to have a strong and enthusiastic fan base, often critical and often reverential of what the brand's up to. Any brand that thinks it can operate in today's web connected world without giving its fans an independent voice is doomed to a hard time.

And isn't your example, which I have quoted above, actually the very proof you seek that BeoWorld is independent of B&O?

(Written by someone who's had extensive dealings with and contacts with B&O, but who is not presently directly involved with the company!)

Re: Independence.

KingStreet — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:23:52 GMT

The Beonic Man:
Well I have made a new friend through this site, Flappo the Grate, so I am extremely grateful for that. He is a 38 year old female from Uganda ( see http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=26652477 for further details) whose only interest in life is to be abusive through a number of online portals. My life would have been so empty without him, so a big thank you to Beoworld for that.
It has been fun and I know that I voice a great many views that people have but might not say. I like saying them because its honest and straight to the point, a Greek trait and one that I am proud of. All the best.
Simon.

????

Having read this thread with interest, I will declare here and now that I do indeed have a vested interest.

I own a B&O franchise in Manchester. I ran a couple of events instore that some folks from these boards have attended. I would like to think that everyone had an enjoyable visit, and that they were not unduly pressured into buying anything - (you'd have to ask them ) although bear in mind that it is, after all, a shop ) What I would say is it was an honour to host both events, and everyone who attended was a warm & friendly person - no exceptions. But - I do use my shops name as a username here, so I suppose that is a form of advertising. I have publicised a couple of evening - we even hosted a BeoWorld Prize Draw. So, maybe I "used" the site for financial gain.

However - I can assure The Bionic Man that if Lee ( or anyone else ) wanted to cynically obtain ££'s via a website, there are far easier / more lucrative ways to do so - the level of detail, care, time, interest etc that is put into the BeoBrand via this site is way ahead of the bare minimum that could be done for similar financial return.

So the only possible conclusion is that extra time & effort is done willingly, for the shared benefit of the other members. Not be all dewey -eyed about it - this is a great "fan site", but the reality is that Lee has overheads, and a living to make, so there needs to be some income - but to accuse the founder/members/mods of this site in such a way is simply not fair. I am fairly sure that Beoworld alone would not even pay minimum-wage if it was a full time job - so why be so negative ??

Re: Independence.

Peter — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:18:19 GMT

Actually you don't seem to voice any of my thoughts at all. I personally find there is a big difference between honesty and rudeness. Clearly the line between them is something we all must find and decide. I am sorry that you have decided to leave Beoworld and hope that you have benefitted from some of the advice you have sought. This is essentially an information site and tries its best to avoid personal slurs so that all members can gain without being made to feel inferior or superior to anyone else. A lot of members on this site are actually extremely wealthy but give their time freely. Others have to save to indulge their passion for B&O. All in my view are equally valuable to this site and add to the extremely friendly nature of this site.

I will, at your request, delete your membership immediately.

Re: Independence.

The Beonic Man — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:03:40 GMT

Well I have made a new friend through this site, Flappo the Grate, so I am extremely grateful for that. He is a 38 year old female from Uganda ( see http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=26652477 for further details) whose only interest in life is to be abusive through a number of online portals. My life would have been so empty without him, so a big thank you to Beoworld for that.

It has been fun and I know that I voice a great many views that people have but might not say. I like saying them because its honest and straight to the point, a Greek trait and one that I am proud of. All the best.

Simon.