General Forum

Re: New Beovision 4

Bingo — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:00:03 GMT

I agree that people are expecting every year more for their money with televisions. Strangely enough, it were the brands by theirselves who started that trend. But I think that due to the fact that production costs of flatpanel has lowered every year, they did the right thing to give of lot of that back to the costumers. If you want that a great bunch of people adopt it, you must. I also wonder where the bottomprice will be reached. Every year, the plasmapanels become better and cheaper at the same time. So B&O is the only manufacturer who ignored that trend and see what came of it...... So they must find a way in the middle somehowe...

Re: New Beovision 4

355f — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:35:42 GMT

rednik:

Can someone clear this up for me? Is the D10 panel that now ships in BV4 (since this week) not the latest panel as people are suggesting?
Also, re prices etc. Since Pioneer are now puling out of plasma production as a way of reducing their huge losses, does this not suggest that many of these firms are selling their products at unrealistically low prices in a bid to win customers. Consumers seem to expect everything for nothing these days, At the sort of volumes B&O are producing of course the prices are going to be higher in order for the business to survive.

Remember B&O are still in profit while Pioneer are pedicting a loss of nearly $150,000,000. If you really don't like the products and prices thats fine. But for anyone who does want B&O to survive I would suggest people be a bit less negative around here. If I was new to the brand and found this site and all the current posts I probably wouldn't buy, and long term that doesn't help anyone contributing as it will have an adverse effect on B&O as a company.

Even Lee will struggle to sell 2nd life products if all this negativity, over what are still fantastic products, results in a load of dealers closing as all anyone ever posts is compaints that for the price you should be getting the latest widget, which in reality doesn't actually benefit the user in any way.

Sorry - rant over

Firstly, as B&O is not a manufacturer of plasma screens, it makes no difference that there is consolidation. In fact this makes prices even lower. You can buy the panasonic screen- (the latest one- ) for 25% of the cost of the BV4( which is in effect the panasonic screen)- are you suggesting B&OI needs MORE profit than this in order to survive? Are you suggesting that at £12K the BV4 is to cheap?? they already have the largest gross margins in the business.

Im sure that LEE does excellent business with second life products and will continue to do so- In the second hand market the market finds its own level. I also rather suspect lifestyle av sells rather less latest varient BV4 and BV9 and more 9000, 8000, avants and bv7 and speakers.

We all want B&O to survive, its not a question of being negative, rather, realistic!

You may not have read that sales are taking a nosedive- and that trend continues. Is it better if one turns the site into mutual admiration of everything B&O- I rather suspect its that attitude that has led the company into its present position. Im afraid dealers are going to close anyway and i doubt the limited readership of the posts on here has played an active part in that process.

Re: New Beovision 4

rednik — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 14:19:14 GMT

Can someone clear this up for me? Is the D10 panel that now ships in BV4 (since this week) not the latest panel as people are suggesting?

Also, re prices etc. Since Pioneer are now puling out of plasma production as a way of reducing their huge losses, does this not suggest that many of these firms are selling their products at unrealistically low prices in a bid to win customers. Consumers seem to expect everything for nothing these days, At the sort of volumes B&O are producing of course the prices are going to be higher in order for the business to survive.

Remember B&O are still in profit while Pioneer are pedicting a loss of nearly $150,000,000. If you really don't like the products and prices thats fine. But for anyone who does want B&O to survive I would suggest people be a bit less negative around here. If I was new to the brand and found this site and all the current posts I probably wouldn't buy, and long term that doesn't help anyone contributing as it will have an adverse effect on B&O as a company.

Even Lee will struggle to sell 2nd life products if all this negativity, over what are still fantastic products, results in a load of dealers closing as all anyone ever posts is compaints that for the price you should be getting the latest widget, which in reality doesn't actually benefit the user in any way.

Sorry - rant over

Re: New Beovision 4

355f — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 13:52:23 GMT

RussR:
355f:
TripEnglish:

There is a great deal of depth to this post. What you refer to in the last paragraph is 'black crush' in an effort to improve black. one loses the detail
It is very relevant that you have chosen the D9 screen to compare quality and black levels- the D9HD screen scores highly in this area, which was later lost on the 1080 screen panasonic came out with later and that screen is fitted to the latest BV4....

If B&O want to maintain the pricing- they should offer the very latest panel varients at all times- this goes for |LCD as well. Otherwise the buyers will leave in considerable numbers because the picture quality addvantage just isnt there with BnO-

I don't want to seem a bomb-thrower here 355; but these two sentences from your last post seem to stand in stark opposition to one another. Similarly in other threads we have discussed the difference between 'latest' and 'best'. I think B&O are to be lauded to the extent that they resist the constant pressure to jump to the latest technological advance when it does not in fact improve overall quality, and in some cases actually decreases it.

Russ

Well - in this case its more of a glitch! panasonic came out with the 1080 screen to compete- when in fact for the most part the HD version was better- for most applications. My post was more relating to the 'new technology' offered by B&O which is ' on board calibration' the game has moved on now .

What would you prefer

1. calibration to an older panel that been available for 14 months in the open market and has since been superceded.

2. the latest varient of panel with double the life expectancy rendering the above a pretty useless gimmick.

The overall point being, I have not noticed- even with panels way beyond 'half life' that the picture degrades to a degree that a couple of notched in brightness wont resolve over 7 years!

Re: New Beovision 4

Russ — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 13:31:12 GMT

355f:
TripEnglish:
There is a great deal of depth to this post. What you refer to in the last paragraph is 'black crush' in an effort to improve black. one loses the detail
It is very relevant that you have chosen the D9 screen to compare quality and black levels- the D9HD screen scores highly in this area, which was later lost on the 1080 screen panasonic came out with later and that screen is fitted to the latest BV4....

If B&O want to maintain the pricing- they should offer the very latest panel varients at all times- this goes for |LCD as well. Otherwise the buyers will leave in considerable numbers because the picture quality addvantage just isnt there with BnO-

I don't want to seem a bomb-thrower here 355; but these two sentences from your last post seem to stand in stark opposition to one another. Similarly in other threads we have discussed the difference between 'latest' and 'best'. I think B&O are to be lauded to the extent that they resist the constant pressure to jump to the latest technological advance when it does not in fact improve overall quality, and in some cases actually decreases it.

Russ

Re: New Beovision 4

355f — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 12:32:52 GMT

TripEnglish:

Gentlemen,
I agree that when you examine these things on paper, the higher number looks great. I would argue (having stood in front of them at work for 8 hours a day and then sat at home and watched one), is that increasing this particular figure is somewhat like increasing bhp in an automobile. At best it presents an oppurtunity to build a better performing machine, but without many other aspects in place it will have issues connecting its power to the road.
After seeing the Sony 11" OLED with its 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio and realizing that its blacks were no deeper than one of our 2 year old floor model plasmas, my thoughts on the importance were truly crystalized on this matter. My BeoVision 4 D9 panel has the deepest blacks I've seen on any screen (Pioneer Kuro included), but renders detail with much greater precision to to its adaptive picture controls.
The thing that stand out for me on these black-idle, variable backlit, super contrast ratio screens, is that they seem to give everything a "comic book" look. By this I mean that things are over-sharpened yet still contain plenty of visual noise, the colors are unbalanced, and the blacks are not objectively deep. What I notice specifically about the blacks are that everything below a certain luminance value is simply flat black. This, of course, is not accurately rendered regardless of how deep that color fill might be. If I were wearing a tuxedo (meaning it was after 6pm any given day of the week) and I were to be shown on a screen of any make with all its figures maxed out versus a B&O panel with whatever its stats happen to be, you wouldn't be able to see the stripe down the side of the trousers, nor most of the lapel, nor the subtle folds and creases in the fabric. I'd simply look black. If speakers played sound the way that these televisions showed pictures, we wouldn't even be debating this.

There is a great deal of depth to this post. What you refer to in the last paragraph is 'black crush' in an effort to improve black. one loses the detail

It is very relevant that you have chosen the D9 screen to compare quality and black levels- the D9HD screen scores highly in this area, which was later lost on the 1080 screen panasonic came out with later and that screen is fitted to the latest BV4.

In relation to contrast ratios, the human eye is unable to determine the differences in the real world and the problem is that manufacturers have cheated so instead of quoting a 'running contrast ratio' one gets 'peak' so with brightness and contrast and sharpness all set to max( in other words a picture that is unwatchable) the contrast ratio is the varience between black and white. Thats why one has huge potential CR for the new LCD screens- the whites are almost halogen white- but in fact the blacks are no better and yet the CR has increased ten fold.

The purpose of my original post was to indicate that later varient panels panasonic have, or will have almost 40% more 'half life' and i think B&O should concentrate its efforts on getting the newest panels from panasonic rather than a silly calibration device.

Whilst plasma has its faults, i run several panasonics going back over 7 years that are WAY past half life and there is not much in it regarding colour rendition- new to old. Equally unless its a super quality calibration device - which is unlikely- they are not very accurate at best im afraid.

So BnO need to bring its customers up to date on plasma technology and not supply older panels in the mistaken belief that the customers wont know , because at the prices BnO charge they should make the effort.After all the basic trade cost of the panel is about 25% of the price that B&O charge for the BV4

Onto the Pioneer Kuro- Pioneer were the first to use CR enhancement methods in order to sell plasma- as a result out of the box they crush black- but if you get the screen calibrated - which lowers the CR the blacks are as good as the BV4-

If B&O want to maintain the pricing- they should offer the very latest panel varients at all times- this goes for |LCD as well. Otherwise the buyers will leave in considerable numbers because the picture quality addvantage just isnt there with BnO-

Re: New Beovision 4

Russ — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 11:59:03 GMT

Bingo:
Six months? The new Pasaonic plasma's with the much higher contrast are out now? Why does B&O wait so long??

Bingo, I read 355f to mean that the currently available D-10 panels from Panasonic, are little different from the outgoing D9 panels, and that there is something else coming in 6 months or so.

Russ

Re: New Beovision 4

TripEnglish — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 11:31:07 GMT

Gentlemen,

I agree that when you examine these things on paper, the higher number looks great. I would argue (having stood in front of them at work for 8 hours a day and then sat at home and watched one), is that increasing this particular figure is somewhat like increasing bhp in an automobile. At best it presents an oppurtunity to build a better performing machine, but without many other aspects in place it will have issues connecting its power to the road.

After seeing the Sony 11" OLED with its 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio and realizing that its blacks were no deeper than one of our 2 year old floor model plasmas, my thoughts on the importance were truly crystalized on this matter. My BeoVision 4 D9 panel has the deepest blacks I've seen on any screen (Pioneer Kuro included), but renders detail with much greater precision to to its adaptive picture controls.

The thing that stand out for me on these black-idle, variable backlit, super contrast ratio screens, is that they seem to give everything a "comic book" look. By this I mean that things are over-sharpened yet still contain plenty of visual noise, the colors are unbalanced, and the blacks are not objectively deep. What I notice specifically about the blacks are that everything below a certain luminance value is simply flat black. This, of course, is not accurately rendered regardless of how deep that color fill might be. If I were wearing a tuxedo (meaning it was after 6pm any given day of the week) and I were to be shown on a screen of any make with all its figures maxed out versus a B&O panel with whatever its stats happen to be, you wouldn't be able to see the stripe down the side of the trousers, nor most of the lapel, nor the subtle folds and creases in the fabric. I'd simply look black. If speakers played sound the way that these televisions showed pictures, we wouldn't even be debating this.

Re: New Beovision 4

Bingo — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 07:57:15 GMT

Well, everyone who will compare the new panasonic panels with contrast ratio 30.000:1 with the one B&O uses will see the difference. So B&O what's it gonna be?

Re: New Beovision 4

355f — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 07:30:16 GMT

Bingo:
Six months? The new Pasaonic plasma's with the much higher contrast are out now? Why does B&O wait so long??

If B&O is to be taken seriously the business model has to change. Obviously its much more profitable to offer 'outdated' panels in its products as the discounts are greater.

On the new BV4 we have the 'performance monitoring arm' and yet the panels available are always 12 months behind, with the advances over the next 18 months in product life this is not a policy thats good.

What would you rather prefer- a rather silly gimmick to measure the decrease in performance of the product- OR the latest panel varients with almost double half life anyway??

B&O does not have the highest gross margins in the business for nothing!

Re: New Beovision 4

Bingo — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 04:47:19 GMT

Six months? The new Pasaonic plasma's with the much higher contrast are out now? Why does B&O wait so long??

Re: New Beovision 4

355f — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:20:41 GMT

Max:
I wandered into my local dealer today and they mentioned they had just received an email from B&O to say they will now be shipping the D10 panel in the new BV4. Does anyone have any experience of the differences between a D9 and D10 (I thought the latest BV4-50 had been full HD for a while now?)

Not a lot of difference between the two panels.

The bigest changes are due with the next paansonoic series in 6 months time

Re: New Beovision 4

Max — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:24:05 GMT

I wandered into my local dealer today and they mentioned they had just received an email from B&O to say they will now be shipping the D10 panel in the new BV4. Does anyone have any experience of the differences between a D9 and D10 (I thought the latest BV4-50 had been full HD for a while now?)

Re: New Beovision 4

Daniel — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 07:52:53 GMT

The new BV4 and BL10 are now on the B&O webpage.

Re: New Beovision 4

TripEnglish — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 00:24:05 GMT

That is utterly false. Apparently your dealer has not listened to the gentle purrs coming from the basket. The televisions will arrive when the current panels disappear. At current rates, that will be within the next 4-6 weeks. Both sizes will be coming. Worry not. As the kittens have long suggested (interesting that they haven't grown into full grown cats), the video platforms between the US and the rest of the Earth will be parallel going forward. We may never see every size and model, but as with the BV 8, we should be on the same page going forward.