General Forum

Re: value for money

Puncher — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:52:19 GMT

I should have posted this here but wented to the Torben - sacked thread. Never mind -

" I don't mind paying for what I know I'm getting - I understand the differences in tooling costs for casting tools, plastic injection moulding tools and engineering costs when the products are destined for low volume versus high volume markets, however I still think B&O are taking the mickey on their current TV costs (if not their entire product range). Costs can spiral to cover for weaknesses elsewhere in their business plan - if this is the case it is not healthy. If the costs are spiralling because they believe they have a customer base willing to pay then this is even more worrying for the future.

I know ther are those that will pay the price regardless, even for product that many think are weak but I believe engineering, features, design and quality will always sell - past reputations however will not!

Just my opinion!"

Re: value for money

AT — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:33:30 GMT

"That puts its MSRP around $215,000. The price is roughly $100,000 more than the 760Li sedan from parent company BMW. The price tag will position the new car squarely against the Bentley Arnage."

I think, it's not the same strategy, it's just the same as the MX3500 versus MX5500.

BMW try to fill the gaps in the palette, and made a deceison to run a Rolls against to a Bentley. But, IMHO, that is not a question, that the Bentley is a premium car also ;)

Anyway, if we try to compare the two strategy, then I suggest another comparisation:

Currently B&O used to try the following:

They intend to make some facelift on a BMW5, and race it against to an Arnage for a price of a Phantom. And, when somebody says, I think a BMW7 is a better choice, than this car, for a lot less price the fan club yield up immediately... You can't afford it, and that's the problem.

No, the problem is not here. The problem is the following:

Today, there are several A/V company which offers You full and wide range product range for a reasonable price. And You can easily get this information.

B&O tried to widen the product range, but in this way they made huge gaps, against to for example BMW, which against to it, perfectly filled all the gaps.

I think, they have to move back - less, but carefully selected products, which covers even only a small part of the A/V business.

Please notice, I'am not against the price differences, because it is the normal way. Of course, fe. a larger TV costs more, then a smaller one. But I think, the premium category has nothing to do with the "cheap" thinking.

Re: value for money

linder — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:56:22 GMT

http://www.leftlanenews.com/rolls-royce-ceo-sheds-more-light-on-smaller-sedan.html

Re: value for money

AT — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:41:22 GMT

"It will be about 168000 euros."

The Phantom's MSRP is $333,350, which is EUR 218,000. It's the same category IMHO. It wil be not
cheap. And not the BMW7 price will be higher. They will share the technology, and parts. Of course, if they are the same company.

And, plans are plans, let's see it ;)

Re: value for money

linder — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:39:57 GMT

Henry:
linder:

It will be about 168000 euros.
I do remind you the title of this thread is 'Value for money!'

You are right. I was trying to be facetious by pointing out there is a less expensive Rolls coming. Car analogies don't really work well with A/V products.

If I were looking to acquire my first B&O system, I think the best value with the most wow factor and terrific sound for the money is Besound 4 and Beolab 3s. In light of the current situation, you cannot go wrong with that combination.

Re: value for money

Stars — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:05:28 GMT

linder:

It will be about 168000 euros.

I do remind you the title of this thread is 'Value for money!'

Re: value for money

linder — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:34:03 GMT

AT:

As You can see, the BMW porfolio is a lot wider, because it's includes also the Mini as a trendi car, and also a Phantom, which is a really dreamcar. But will BMW ever
let the Rolls Royce create a "Mini Rolls"? Never! Why? Because, You MUST specify the customers,
to whom You intend to sell something. And if You intend to sell unique, and higly priced product, then there is no possibility to sell cheap products. Not a miracle that BMW left Rover alone,
because they were not as good, as the BMW standard.

In this way, a BMW1-BMW7 price range is nothing against to their difference to the Phantom. I don't think that a BMW7 has any real less in any paramater, against to a Phantom, but due to the brand name, a Phantom MUST be priced as high, as possible, and the BMW... to...

Things are never what they seem to be. In 2009 or 2010, Rolls Royce is coming out with a smaller Rolls based on the BMW7. It will be about 168000 euros.

Re: value for money

AT — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:12:55 GMT

But, just for fun: Aston Martin was the part of the Ford Motor co., so it was not a manufacturer in the last ten years, but only a brand name, which became successful only with the extraimly lots of support (tech(!) and money) from Ford.

Anyway, I think, the Aston Martin prices are reasonables, even if I can't afford it, but yes, I still say, they are fantastic cars.

But, my problem with B&O is the total opposite, I can afford them, but I don't think, they worth that money, they asking for.

Re: value for money

DoubleR — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:42:01 GMT

it is possible that becoming a 21st century well recognized brand like Aston Martin worldwide has allowed B&O managers to think that it was possible to add any indecent mark up to their products for there was an economic boom out there. Now things are changing and one cannot ask stupid prices anymore for what can be seen around.

B&O will have to adapt somehow soon...

Re: value for money

ed7 — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:18:38 GMT

Bingo:

The televisions are the trouble with their value in my opinion.
You cannot be believable and be taken serieous when you charge 16000 euro for a 50 plasma with a Panasonic screen nowadays.
Now they think they found out the wheel again with a camera on the new Beovision4 .
I saw a $7,500 dollar price mentioned for the 50 inch new Beovison 4 without speaker but if this includes the Beosystem 3 which was always part of the Beovision 4, there must be a dramaticly price-reduction on it's way.
http://www.i4u.com/article13929.html

i tend to agree here like giving someone a cheap diamond wrapped in the most expensive box

Re: value for money

dilznik — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:14:32 GMT

AT:

So, IMHO Your argument at first time sounds good, but not for the second time.

I didn't think anyone would read it twice ;-)

But yeah, you're right. My point was B&O has a wide range of stuff. I wasn't thinking of the rebadged stuff like the BS6 (because it's crap). I was thinking more like the BS1 or the BS4 or the BL4... "entry level" stuff compared with the BS9000 or the BL9 or BL5. Between the former and the latter there's a mighty wide range. A lot of people can afford the BL4 but not a lot can afford the BL5. A lot of people can afford a BMW series but not a lot can afford a 750iL with all the trimmings.

But yeah, the basic math of most of the products is totally asinine.

Re: value for money

AT — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:54:18 GMT

dilznik:
BMW makes a 1 series.

[...]

You know?

To compare BMW to B&O is not a real good thing IMHO, just check the figures:

Revenue €49 billion (2006)
Employees 107,079 (2007)

I think, it's a totally different ligue...

So, IMHO Your argument at first time sounds good, but not for the second time.

I think, the BMW1 and the BMW7 doesn't represents the company, because the company also includes the Rolls Royce, the F1 BMW-Sauber team. Let's forget the rest ;)

As You can see, the BMW porfolio is a lot wider, because it's includes also the Mini as a trendi car, and also a Phantom, which is a really dreamcar. But will BMW ever
let the Rolls Royce create a "Mini Rolls"? Never! Why? Because, You MUST specify the customers,
to whom You intend to sell something. And if You intend to sell unique, and higly priced product, then there is no possibility to sell cheap products. Not a miracle that BMW left Rover alone,
because they were not as good, as the BMW standard.

In this way, a BMW1-BMW7 price range is nothing against to their difference to the Phantom. I don't think that a BMW7 has any real less in any paramater, against to a Phantom, but due to the brand name, a Phantom MUST be priced as high, as possible, and the BMW... to...

Reasonable.

In short term: The BMW1-BMW7 really differences in the size, but they are the same if You check the whole palette of BMW. And, if You check the whole pricelist, then You can see, that a BMW1 can be almost as expensive as a "cheap" BMW7... the total difference in the price is approximately 2-4 times. But, if You compare the BMW1 and BMW7 against to the opponents (in the same category of course), than You shell figure out, that they have very reasonable(!) prices, and they costs almost the same,
as the opponents. Try to use the pricing on a BMW1 or BMW7 as B&O tryes to do it, and You shell see what will happen very soon: Nobody will purchase them.

And do You think, a "fan club" can save a brand like this: The problems are not correct, the only problem is, that You
can't afford it? Who want a BMW, must to pay for it? For example 7x more, than a Mercedes AMG?!

No, it will surely not work.

So&IMHO a BMW1-BMW7 comparisation to B&O was available in the past, when for example a BS3000/BS3200's price was depended on what You intend to purchase, or when there was the MX3500-MX5500 possibility to get the SAME quality in different size.

But to put a Rolls sticker on a Mini... sorry, IMHO it's not a future, because nobody will purchase the "Rolls Mini" (or even for a short period, just to say, I own a Rolls - even doesn't know what ROLLS mean...), and nobody will pay the price for a BMW Phantom, because it will be not a premium brand any more.

Even it's the best on the entire planet.

But, if it's overpriced, and not the best - it's just takes a sort time to sell it to Tata... er... to sell it to Samsung.

IMHO.

Re: value for money

dilznik — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:02:05 GMT

BMW makes a 1 series. People who buy it like to know they're buying a BMW. It's a decent car for a good price and it lets people who normally would've been stuck with a GM, have something a little better.

BMW makes a 7 series. People who buy it are buying a status symbol. It's a pimped out car for a massive price that lets people who buy it say to the other people "suck it" because they have a great car that may or may not be worth it. They didn't need to spend that much but they did because they can.

BMW has diversified to build up the widest and largest owner base that they can, which makes them money.

B&O has diversified to build up the widest and largest owner base that they can, which makes them money.

You know?

Re: value for money

AT — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:03:22 GMT

I think, there is no doubt, that B&O's name still sounds good, and mostly if money is not a question. Because usually that class is not thinking, not looking about prices, and not looking personly for solutions, but leave the interior design to the stylists.

So I'am agree, there are several people who can spend ANY money to a/v products, but, they will not purchase some common thing, just like an Audi speaker(!), a Samsung mobile(!), when they can afford a Ferrari, or even the diamond based limited Nokias...

IMHO, there is no problem if B&O chooses this segment, but, in this case, B&O MUST forget the cheap products, and have to price their product a lot higher! But, it is only acceptable, if B&O has a solution for
everything, and if B&O will be the market leader, and has the best products on the market. Just because, without this the owner will be a snob who purchase incredible expensive goods without knowing anything about the World.

What was the question twenty years ago? Q: Why did You purchased a so expensive B&O? A: Because it's the best, and amasing product on the entire human universe.

What's the question today: Q: Can You afford it? A: Yes/No.

Is it the same? IMHO no. Just like black/white, ying/yang, these arguments are totally the opposite.

And if the new owner will notice: There is no HDMI on the systems, no DAB, and so on, and he needs it, or will figure out, that there is no SACD/HD possibility, then - according the previous - he will surely, and easily replace the whole system without any question. And if there will be only some of them, the B&O name will go lower and lower, and it will be nothing else, but the "common, default factory standard a/v system", which MUST be replaced after purchasing something.

And only some people in this area is enough to destroy the B&O name.

And why?

Because they can afford it. And if a brand can't fulfill their needs, than they will choose a different one. Even for a lot more money.

So, at the minimum: B&O must have at least a terrible, incredible highly priced solution for everything they need.

Because, if the rumour will rise, that it's not the best, there are no solutions, and so on, than the name will be down in just months, not even years.

And, after this: Who will buy a B&O? Who can afford it - will not buy it, who can't, can not forever.

And, for last: If a house is on sale, which includes a B&O system (worth 1/20 of the whole price), is NOT the same, as to sell a GBP 100.000 system to somebody. IMHO who want, and can purchase a GPB 5M house, then he will not care about the B&O. If he likes the house, he will purchase it, even with B&O even with not.

So, I don't think, that nowdays a B&O system makes any difference in the decision to purchase a house, or not.

Re: value for money

soundproof — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:46:51 GMT

If this is B&O's market, then they don't need the stores -- they'd do wonderfully by going "underground" and supplying super high-end A/V to select customers, working through developers, interior designers, a/v customizers and their own bespoke services. (Which, by the way, is what Goldmund is doing.)

B&O would then only need a few flagship stores or demo-centres in specially chosen locations.

As pointed out above, there's a disconnect between the price-point of a number of the products, relative to what else is available in the market, and the large footprint of B&O today. Quite a challenge. They need products that are relevant to those who walk by their stores every day - given the high-street locations of most one can surmise that passersby will be weighted towards the higher-income segment in the total market, they still need to have value for money in order to attract enough new customers. (As we know here, B&O is not a brand you become instantly familiar with!)