General Forum

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

Peter — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:10:54 GMT

moxxey:
The Beonic Man:
I am not getting my hopes up about the BeoSound 5 at all...
Simon.
It sounds like it's going to be darned expensive, too. Now, from what I can understand, it sounds like a BeoMedia type app, within a controllable and good looking exterior. Fine, but that sounds like another overpriced BeoCenter 2 to me. Apart from being able to drive my B&O speakers, it doesn't sound like it will be able to offer anything I can't already control and manage from my iMac. At the moment, I can manage my music in iTunes, stream to an Airport Express through the house and then connect directly to my B&O equipment.
The BeoSound 5 is going to he have to do something rather funky to draw attention for the price point previously mentioned.

I have a nasty feeling that you are correct. Having now experienced the delights of two way communication with my iTunes using my iPod Touch as a remote, I am not convinced that it will offer me anything more - or even as good. I am however very happy to be proved wrong!

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

Craig — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:07:03 GMT

Yes, I too think that the Beosound 5 when it finally does arrive will be a bit of a disappointment. After what seems to be an etrenity of waiting for it to be released.

Craig

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

moxxey — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:00:47 GMT

The Beonic Man:
I am not getting my hopes up about the BeoSound 5 at all...
Simon.

It sounds like it's going to be darned expensive, too. Now, from what I can understand, it sounds like a BeoMedia type app, within a controllable and good looking exterior. Fine, but that sounds like another overpriced BeoCenter 2 to me. Apart from being able to drive my B&O speakers, it doesn't sound like it will be able to offer anything I can't already control and manage from my iMac. At the moment, I can manage my music in iTunes, stream to an Airport Express through the house and then connect directly to my B&O equipment.

The BeoSound 5 is going to he have to do something rather funky to draw attention for the price point previously mentioned.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

The Beonic Man — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:25:39 GMT

Peter:
I agree. to be successful during what looks as if it will be a recession, B&O have to offer something that is unique, and repackaged products will not be enough. Products akin to the Beosound 9000 and AV9000 which stood out as something different are needed. I do hope the Beosound 5 will be such a product - but I am not sure!

I am not getting my hopes up about the BeoSound 5 at all. Looking at the clues from the Star of the Day competition it seems to me it's modelled on the BeoSound 3 in terms of the buttons, wheels, colour and general styling. This adds nothing to the range from a design perspective so it will only be what it offers in features that will give it a chance of selling. This will be a good chance for those customers who choose functionality over design. While most of us would hope to get both functionality and a unique design, I feel this isn't going to come into fruition given B&Os offerings in recent years. This then leaves an easy choice for people and I suspect there will be just as many who, like me, would choose design over functionality, hence they will not end up buying the BS5, regardless of its functionality. We will see.

Simon.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

Puncher — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:58:54 GMT

I think that, in the hardware sense, the games lies squarely in the speaker arena. All media is now digital (terrestial TV, CD, Streamed/stored music/video from internet or server etc). B&O have set their stall out with active speakers only and so it would make sense to me to incorporate the final conversion process in the speakers themselves as in the BL5 thus minimising the number of data conversions and preserving the integrity of the source data. I see little point in a Full B&O system of providing a high quality analogue source for use with BL5's - what is required is, in essence, a digital mixer than can accept all the various digital audio sources, control them seamlessy and can distribute them as required in your particular system. This would, for me, be the Beosound 5 (this does not disclude the BS5 from having a drive for reading of CD's or other disc based data)

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

Peter — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:37:49 GMT

I agree. to be successful during what looks as if it will be a recession, B&O have to offer something that is unique, and repackaged products will not be enough. Products akin to the Beosound 9000 and AV9000 which stood out as something different are needed. I do hope the Beosound 5 will be such a product - but I am not sure!

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

moxxey — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:35:15 GMT

355f:
well im talking more of a worldwide situation than the Uk market specially. The case you mentioned is rather unique in any event individuals feel less wealthy when its clear house prices are not moving up! and all audio brands i know in the prestige sector are feeling the ill wind blowing. In any event the B&O pricing strategy makes seriously wealthy individuals think about the pruchase and if it is wise to 'invest' in BnO.

One thing I was thinking of is that the Beovision 8 may appear to us to be poor value, but not to the average customer (incl my brother, who is in to his gadgets). The irony is that, to him and many others, the BV8 appears to be 'good value' compared to other B&O TVs. The point I was trying to make above is that DVD players cost £50. Blu-ray standalone DVD players cost £300. B&O are charging £2800 for the Beocenter 2, which is effectively an analogue-based DVD player. It can't upscale, it has no HDMI output etc, yet was only revised in the second half of this year. It's products such as this that makes potential customers wince - as how can you justify the value of this device?

I must admit, you're completely right about the BV4 though. I completely forgot that this costs £12,000, which is effectively a Panasonic 50" screen worth £2000 (empiredirect.co.uk), plus a BS3, which has now been built in to the BV7-40 and really isn't worth more than £2K. The BV4 + BS3 combo should be around £6K tops. I recently evaluated buying a BV4-50, BS3 and BL9's. The price was around £17K, for a plasma screen, a box to relay the image and mid-range speakers.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

355f — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:28:08 GMT

moxxey:

I don't think the market is stagnating as much as people feared. In the UK, most of the people I describe above make money from the rental market, rather than selling property. My landlords are classic examples. Aged between 45 and 50, eight apartments in Bath, bought for around £50,000 each around 15 years ago, all rented, and their most affordable apartment is now worth a minimum £200,000.
However, these guys don't have a huge salary (from their day work), but are property rich, if they decide to sell. Even if the property market stagnates and drops by 15%, these guys would easily be in the position to capitalise - they're still going to make a hefty profit and, guess what, as property owners, are also in a very good poisition to captilise on a declining market!
Conclusion is that the average B&O customer I mention above isn't the kind of person who will be affected by any property crash. Indeed, they're the people who would be first in line to buy new property if they do come down in price..

well im talking more of a worldwide situation than the Uk market specially, the situation has only just begun. individuals feel less wealthy when its clear house prices are not moving up! and all audio brands i know in the prestige sector are feeling the ill wind blowing. In any event the B&O pricing strategy makes seriously wealthy individuals think about the pruchase and if it is wise to 'invest' in BnO and question the performance of it especially when they can see other brands for 10th of the price that perform as well, which ewas not the case in the avant days.

The issue is that 12500 for a BV4 is pushing it when a pioneer which offers similar performance can be had for £1900. Whlist one can make an argument for the huge premium, never before has the variance in pricing been so great and for a performance level on many products which is sadly lacking

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

moxxey — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:52:30 GMT

I don't think the market is stagnating as much as people feared. In the UK, most of the people I describe above make money from the rental market, rather than selling property. My landlords are classic examples. Aged between 45 and 50, eight apartments in Bath, bought for around £50,000 each around 15 years ago, all rented, and their most affordable apartment is now worth a minimum £200,000.

However, these guys don't have a huge salary (from their day work), but are property rich, if they decide to sell. Even if the property market stagnates and drops by 15%, these guys would easily be in the position to capitalise - they're still going to make a hefty profit and, guess what, as property owners, are also in a very good poisition to captilise on a declining market!

Conclusion is that the average B&O customer I mention above isn't the kind of person who will be affected by any property crash. Indeed, they're the people who would be first in line to buy new property if they do come down in price..

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

355f — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:39:07 GMT

Its true to say that many individuals would not buy BnO and rather interestingly that includes many former customers who bought the products because they offered ease of use and were aguably the best- in the avant days.

Now many are amazed by the pricing and simply wont entertain the costs now involved- the arguments about ease of use and quality dont apply in the same way- buy any panasonic products with Q link and that shows how connectivity should be done.

Many high end audio brands source from China and in order to compete and produce outstanding products they have to. In the case of BnO though they are sourcing from an avergage supplier a product which has been designed by them and then made very cheaply, with a performance level to match. I doubt that the buying cost is more than $250 on that product. This is a mistake. If BnO want to manufacture in China fair enough- but use that to produce technologically superior products and then charge the premuim for it- not source it and brand it.

With worldwide economies changing and a stagnating property market BnO had better learn quickly.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

Puncher — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 10:05:12 GMT

bayerische:

Lab5 are nice, but lacking a good signal source is the biggerst problem.

But Lab5's accept a digital input - why pay a fortune for a high quality analogue front end?? (which is then, in effect, reconverted to a digital form to drive the Class D output stages)

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

moxxey — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 09:28:05 GMT

My take on this is two-fold:

Firstly the problem with B&O equipment is that it can't be interchanged with third-party equipment, which is something that a lot of people like to do. Connect B&W speakers to a Primare AV unit and so on. At least this is the perceived perception - that you need to buy a B&O hifi, speakers and so on, and this can prove to be expensive and audiophiles might think that you've copped out of making a hard decision, by buying the kit from one source.

The other problem is the type of people that B&O stores traditionally attract. Our local store quite rightly say that the majority of B&O customers are seeking quality, ease-of-use, support and installation over state-of-the-art, latest features, competitive pricing etc. The typical B&O customer seems to be 40 upwards, has a high disposable income, has no interest in looking around for the best deal and simply wants to walk in to the store, make a decision, then get it installed. For this reason, so-called experts or technophiles are wary of B&O kit as they see the type of customer attracted to B&O kit - I feel the same way. Many a time I've been in to my local store to see a couple in their 50s, with £10K to spend on a TV and speaker combination, getting a demo of the various B&O TVs. It's very rare to see someone <35 in the store, making a purchase. Indeed, if I'm ever in a B&O store looking at kit with another person <30, they often feel overwhelmed by the pricing to the point they do not return for a long time.

It's weird. Some people would never dream of buying B&O kit. My brother is one of these people. Both him and his GF are professional architects, sitting in a superb modern self-designed house. For some reason, when I asked him about the tech kit he was planning for his new house, B&O kit was now way down on the list. He has been in to a local B&O store, but wasn't overly impressed with the picture quality - he loves the design of the Beovision 8, and the Beocenter 2 and was tempted to buy, until he was told how much the Beocenter 2 was - add the two together and it is a £5600 purchase for a DVD player that connects via scart (!) to a low-end TV that's made in China. To be fair, you'd have to be absolutely flush with cash to justify that decision.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

soundproof — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:10:00 GMT

bayerische:
Lab5 are the first B&O speakers that have actually been taken seriously in the Hifi community.

I won't get into the for or against aspects here, but will offer a slight correction to this statement. The BL3s, the BL5s and the BL4000s are considered to be prime audiophile speakers by audiophiles of renown and acuity -- with many actually placing the BL3s ahead of the 5s due to their small footprint relative to performance. (If the 5s weren't excellent it would be a complete disgrace.)

The BL3s are considered to be superb near-field speakers, and when B&O launched the BL9s in Struer, the 3s stole the show as the assembled hi-fi press representatives couldn't believe what they were hearing from them. (Don't push them too high, though.)

===

As to the question in this thread. My take: B&O gets a bad rap from people because B&O itself has been selling A/V furniture and design instead of performance and excellence - this has opened the brand to attacks. B&O can change this, but then the brand's products must deliver, every time. At present, there's too great a mix between outstanding products and frustration vortex generators such as the mobile phone efforts, the wireless offering, BeoMedia, etc.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

bayerische — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 07:59:25 GMT

I've used many B&O speakers over the 15 years that I have owned B&O.

But I'm also an Audiophile, and B&O has nothing to prove in the world of High-end audio. Period.

Lab5 are nice, but lacking a good signal source is the biggerst problem.

My B&O system is separate from my High-End system, consisting of Meridian, Pathos and ELAC.

Love B&O, but it's not high-end.

In Finland a HiFi magazine had a test between design speakers, and Beolab 8000 was on par with a set of satellites with a Subwoofer costing less than 1000e.

So B&O is very overpriced, but we like it this way. Without the price, stunning design, and pedigree what would we like about B&O? Other manufacturers are overpriced too. It's not only B&O.

Lab5 are the first B&O speakers that have actually been taken seriously in the Hifi community.

Re: Does anybody know why B&O has got such a bad name ?

wilsonsav98 — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:07:30 GMT

Getting back to the main question............ I have had 10yrs of people saying the problems with B&o as have most people with any experience of bang & olufsen, The crux is what makes a valid reason for buying something? It is purely if someone wishes to buy it it is a personal choice. and that is all! Salesmen should advise and answer questions but so many sell boxes and forget.

No one can say that sound quality or amount of inputs or ANY other factor is a more valid reason than it looks nice, it suits my room or using it as a status symbol, They are all reasons for people to buy and no one else should tell someone what to do with their money, every item out there has an audience and every audience have there own reason to buy it and all these reasons are as valid and individual as the next.

Anyway thats my two bits so Ha!

Dave