General Forum

Re: Plasma v lcd

Terrapolitan — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:50:38 GMT

This is clearly off topic (plasma vs lcd) but I think the David Lewis discussion is interesting.

In my view, B&O has deliberately increased the profile of Mr Lewis in the last couple of years. This is good branding and is consistent with trends we are seeing in other design-conscious consumer products (eg furniture and kitchenware). Granted it is ununsual if the field of consumer electronics with the possible exception of Apple and Mr Jobs (I know he's not the actual designer but it is good example of attaching a person to the brand).

For any transition, which could arguably be 10-20 years away, the best solution would be to slowly promote from within. The best business rely on home-grown talent (like Mr Lewis himself was) - this is true in prof football, investment banking and I'm sure it is also the case at B&O. Promotion from within has three distinct advantages: (1) it is cheaper (2) it minimises the risk of culture/ego clashes and (3) it is hugely motivating to work for an organisation which believes in its own people.

So how would you go about this? Start with a less important part of the product line-up, eg the neglected home telephones. Have you seen the new BeoCom XXXX designed by Ms XXXXXXX --- you get the idea.

Erik

Re: Plasma v lcd

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:15:16 GMT

personally i'd have said jonathon ive , but i think he'll have his hands full with apple after steve jobs' abdication

maybe the belgian guy 'Luc Donkerwolke' who designs the new lamborghini's ?

the gallardo and murcialgo while being very up to the minute do continue in the countach / urraco vein i must say , well done old chap !

continuation of a classic theme , that's what really counts imo

Re: Plasma v lcd

The Beonic Man — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:04:09 GMT

Flappo The Grate:
i wonder who'll take over when david lewis retires ?

That's the main question I think. Personally I feel that they should be taking in the new 'breed' now if they haven't already and putting them under the direction of David Lewis who clearly is a master in his field and is the right person to be guiding (and training) the new recruits. This is the most natural and logical progression from all points of view as I see it. From what I have read (so this means I could be completly misinformed) David Lewis seems to throw a lot more punch than the people he reports too, and what he says goes - always. While I admire this up to a point, I also think it is naive and does not open the field for other equally talented people to express their views and share ideas. Jacob Jenson and other designers before David Lewis created excellent products, all with the same WOW factor that David's did. In fact, there are several products David has designed that are really not very good at all, at least not from my point of view. The more ideas you have the better product you are going to come up with in terms of design and functionality. David has made his mark and nobody can take his achievements away from him but to stop the next generation from coming through for personal and 'self-preserve' gain (if this is hapenning) is clearly a mistake. This is a key area for B&O because if they get it wrong then they are in dangerous waters. Time will tell.

Simon.

Re: Plasma v lcd

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:35:51 GMT

i wonder who'll take over when david lewis retires ?

Re: Plasma v lcd

Beolab — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 05:07:15 GMT

The Beonic Man:
Terrapolitan:
When I was a kid in the 1970s, CRT colour TVs were about as expensive as today's high end LCDs or low-end plasma TVs (relative to people's income that is).
In those days, when a TV broke, we would replace the CRT.
Can BV7s and BV9s have their panels replaced in similar fashion?
If so, would it be possible to upgrade the panels as higher quality panels become available?

Stupid question?
Not at all. A very good question in fact. The BeoVision 5 could be updated with newer Panasonic panels, D4-D7 possibly to D8 if I am not mistaken. However, I almost sure this isn't possible with LCD technology because of the backlight technology. Not sure about the BV9 but I suspect its possible too.
Simon.

LCD = It´s possible to change the panel... A few users on this forum have done it on their BV7-32 MK I´s to MK III panel with SW update....

(I remember i asked my dealer and Beoservice how much it would set me back to upgrade my silver BV7-40 MK II to Full HD panel without BS3 chassis before i bought the MKIII also.. And the price was about 2000€ just for panel and installation ...)

Re: Plasma v lcd

The Beonic Man — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:42:42 GMT

Terrapolitan:
When I was a kid in the 1970s, CRT colour TVs were about as expensive as today's high end LCDs or low-end plasma TVs (relative to people's income that is).
In those days, when a TV broke, we would replace the CRT.
Can BV7s and BV9s have their panels replaced in similar fashion?
If so, would it be possible to upgrade the panels as higher quality panels become available?

Stupid question?

Not at all. A very good question in fact. The BeoVision 5 could be updated with newer Panasonic panels, D4-D7 possibly to D8 if I am not mistaken. However, I almost sure this isn't possible with LCD technology because of the backlight technology. Not sure about the BV9 but I suspect its possible too.

Simon.

Re: Plasma v lcd

The Beonic Man — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:40:04 GMT

355f:
Beolab:
355f:
Beolab:

The thing with the new Samsung LED LCD is the black level not the brightness level! The Samsung F96 can dim or even turn the LED lamp off.. = Zero black... The F96 consists of 400 LEDs and the processor have full control of every one!
So the brightness level are the same as on average LCD with 500cd/m2.. I experienced it yesterday and the picture was outstanding.. It´s looks pretty funny when you look at a pitch black scene.. The screen turn of the the hole panel for a tenth of a second.. = Pitch black...
Take a look at your local dealer...

Regards

is this the same 'pitch black' you experience on the BV7 mk111!!!
Hehe, so you think you are a funny now!? We can discuss your plastic (Fiat) Ferrari 355 instead.. Have you bought it because you are in lack of the extra inches in the bed or???
Take a look here..

I sold it when realised that it was good to look at but under the bonnet lacked technical advances- rather like the bv7!

Got to love a good debate! Its great when people are passionate about something. I can understand that people feel 355f criticises the BV7 and I can see why people jump to its defence, both owners and non-owners. As a BV7 owner myself I really like reading posts on both sides because 355f speaks his mind and is honest, which is an admirable trait. Beolab and others reply with equally factual answers, which makes for interesting and thought provoking reading. This is absolutly fantastic for anyone wishing to buy a new TV as they can get an honest, reliable, independent review of current technology, which is precisely what I did for about a year before taking the plunge and buying the BV7. 355f actually likes the BV7 a lot and considers it one of the best TVs in the B&O range for its B&O'ness. I am in slight agreement with this but my heart will always go out to the BV5 because of its design which I loved; more so in fact than any product in B&O range ever. I really really did like this TV. But, in the end, I had no choice but to buy the BV7 because that was the TV that had the connectivity and most importantly for me, it was the TV that was going to retain its value far more for a trade in somewhere down the line than the BV5. I hated the fact that I had to go this route but I wanted a B&O set and that was my only option realistically. However, back in 2005, if I had been armed with £12,500 and was looking for the then top TV, I would have almost certainly come back with a BV5. I just think its shame that it hasn't retained its value for long at all. This is not something you see very often with B&O products but something we may have to start getting used to because its dictated by technology not B&O. It will be really interesting to see what TVs B&O come out with in the future. I do like the BV8 a lot and I am looking forward to seeing the BV10 although it doesn't sound like a major leap forward in terms of its design. I hope B&O will continue to suprise me. The danger is that they don't do enough and like back in the 80s, the company only just stays afloat relying on 2 or 3 best selling products. Its definitly time for B&O to get a new breed of young talented and enthusiastic designers in. I am sure there are some incredible and innovative ideas out there just waiting to come into fruition and B&O are the company to pull it off. It would be unthinkable if B&O ever collapsed. I love their company and their philosophy more than any other in the world; they have such a wonderful history with so many talented individuals and have contributed so much in their field.

Simon.

Re: Plasma v lcd

Terrapolitan — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:45:41 GMT

When I was a kid in the 1970s, CRT colour TVs were about as expensive as today's high end LCDs or low-end plasma TVs (relative to people's income that is).

In those days, when a TV broke, we would replace the CRT.

Can BV7s and BV9s have their panels replaced in similar fashion?

If so, would it be possible to upgrade the panels as higher quality panels become available?

Stupid question?

Re: Plasma v lcd

Beolab — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:18:31 GMT

I most say you did a smart move then.. ( That you sold it..)

I´m about to sell one of my BV7´s also... But i don´t now what to buy to replace it.. I want something that is streets ahead.. Maybe the new 2008 - BV4 ??

Regards

Re: Plasma v lcd

355f — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:03:40 GMT

Beolab:
355f:
Beolab:

The thing with the new Samsung LED LCD is the black level not the brightness level! The Samsung F96 can dim or even turn the LED lamp off.. = Zero black... The F96 consists of 400 LEDs and the processor have full control of every one!
So the brightness level are the same as on average LCD with 500cd/m2.. I experienced it yesterday and the picture was outstanding.. It´s looks pretty funny when you look at a pitch black scene.. The screen turn of the the hole panel for a tenth of a second.. = Pitch black...
Take a look at your local dealer...

Regards

is this the same 'pitch black' you experience on the BV7 mk111!!!
Hehe, so you think you are a funny now!? We can discuss your plastic (Fiat) Ferrari 355 instead.. Have you bought it because you are in lack of the extra inches in the bed or???
Take a look here..

I sold it when realised that it was good to look at but under the bonnet lacked technical advances- rather like the bv7!

Re: Plasma v lcd

Beolab — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:58:42 GMT

355f:
Beolab:

The thing with the new Samsung LED LCD is the black level not the brightness level! The Samsung F96 can dim or even turn the LED lamp off.. = Zero black... The F96 consists of 400 LEDs and the processor have full control of every one!
So the brightness level are the same as on average LCD with 500cd/m2.. I experienced it yesterday and the picture was outstanding.. It´s looks pretty funny when you look at a pitch black scene.. The screen turn of the the hole panel for a tenth of a second.. = Pitch black...
Take a look at your local dealer...

Regards

is this the same 'pitch black' you experience on the BV7 mk111!!!

Hehe, so you think you are a funny now!? We can discuss your plastic (Fiat) Ferrari 355 instead.. Have you bought it because you are in lack of the extra inches in the bed or what??? Or why are you always picking on me and my belongings?? I now there is much better speakers and TV:s but you don´t have to remind me in every sentence please..

Take a look here.. The original picture of BV7 Mark III .. It´s good for a LCD but bad for a plasma in your mind..

I´m about to buy a BV9 and five BL5´s so you don´t have to pick on me every day, or what is the matter with you!???

Re: Plasma v lcd

355f — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:08:28 GMT

Beolab:

The thing with the new Samsung LED LCD is the black level not the brightness level! The Samsung F96 can dim or even turn the LED lamp off.. = Zero black... The F96 consists of 400 LEDs and the processor have full control of every one!
So the brightness level are the same as on average LCD with 500cd/m2.. I experienced it yesterday and the picture was outstanding.. It´s looks pretty funny when you look at a pitch black scene.. The screen turn of the the hole panel for a tenth of a second.. = Pitch black...
Take a look at your local dealer...

Regards

is this the same 'pitch black' you expereince on the BV7 mk111!!!

Re: Plasma v lcd

SWISS_2 — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:55:03 GMT

Seven years ago, we had Plasma flatscreens everywhere at work ( Aerospace ). The screens were hot, could only be used in dark, low lumen, or non-lighted conditions, and suffered greatly from burn-in phantoms.

Imagine looking at a 3-D soft imagery for detail items for any period of time, and having a new screen repaced constantly due to burn in.

Five years ago, all Plasma screens were pulled and replaced by LED flatscreens. There was quite a bit of discussion about LCD versus LED, but the decision had been made at a much higher level after much testing. And after many years of use, the results ( as some have mentioned above ) are condiderably better.

Instant on, bright colours, no burn-in, less heat emitted, no problem with lighting ( except direct sunlight ), and as the technology increases, much improved resolution. The various generational models of HDMI are well appreciated by all. The cost has dropped I'm told, as LED units are less expensive to manufacture, and as the units can be sold in greater volume, High Volume manufacturing adds another cost savings.

I have both an older Gateway Plasma, and 2007 LED at home, and there is a noticeable difference in picture, use, heat, area lighting, and care. Audio is of course B & O.

The Plasma has given us many hours of nightime ( or draw the vertical blinds ) entertainment and computer use over the years, and despite any problems other than heat, we know that well past the warranty expiration, the unit will be replaced someday in the near future.

Unless thin-film HD screens become available soon, the replacement will be an LED flatscreen, which today ( 17.12.2007 ) is less than one fifth the cost of the original Plasma.

Re: Plasma v lcd

soundproof — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:51:10 GMT

Got this from Smarthouse News today:

Is LCD TV Dead?

David Richards - Monday, 17 December 2007

A TV screen battle is set to break out at this year's CES, not between plasma and LCD but between OLED and LCD. So is LCD TV dead? Not according to Scott Birnbaum of Samsung.

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A TV screen battle is set to break out at this year's CES, not between plasma and LCD but between OLED and LCD. So is LCD TV dead? Not according to Scott Birnbaum of Samsung.

He is the vice president for liquid crystal displays sales for Samsung Semiconductor. That unit of the South Korean electronics giant makes the panels used by sister company Samsung Electronics and other TV makers to build televisions, computers, cellphones and an expanding array of other gizmos.

Indeed, Mr. Birnbaum's job is mainly to pitch his products to billboard companies. Samsung has a new line of panels that are more resistant to harsh weather and meant to be easier to see in bright sunlight.

Like all semiconductor businesses, L.C.D. panels are subject to wide swings of supply and demand. These days, Mr. Birnbaum said, demand is outstripping supply and so profit margins are up nicely.

"There weren't enough displays to go around," he said. Samsung, he said, has the largest market share for L.C.D. panels used in computer monitors and televisions.

It takes 18 months and lot of money to build a new plant to make the panels. And a few years ago there was a glut of L.C.D.s on the market so many companies scaled back their investment. Samsung, however, along with Sony, built a new plant that opened in July in Samsung's vast L.C.D. compound in Tangjeong, South Korea. It is what is called a Generation 8 plant, meaning that it fabricates 8.2 foot wide glass sheets that can be cut efficiently into 50-inch panels. Those sizes are becoming every more popular as the prices go down (though not as fast as the prices have dropped in the past).

The earlier Generation 7 plants are designed for 40-inch and 46-inch panels. Of course you can cut some 50- inch panels out of the big glass, but there is more waste.

Why not cut the excess from those panels into smaller screens for laptops or even cell phones? Mr. Birnbaum said that the factories are not designed to do this. Indeed, despite the explosion of small gizmos with color screens—MP3 players, cellphones, digital picture frames and so on—supplies of smaller LCD panels are tight, with prices going up. Since all the new investment is going into factories to make the very largest televisions, he added, there is not much new capacity in the industry for smaller sized panels.

"You can't build cellphones in a Gen 7 fab," he said. "This is creating problems for the industry because demand is increasing as is the amount of square millimeters required for the larger smart phones."
Samsung is trying to insulate itself from discounting, he said, by emphasizing higher-end panels with extra features. For televisions, it has various technologies it claims make images brighter with more contrast and less blur. One example is using a checkerboard of light-emitting diodes to provide backlight for the screen (instead of fluorescent tubes). This allows the set to dim certain squares as needed to help make dark areas of the image blacker. These features, he said, can add 30 percent or more to the wholesale price of a panel.

With the demand still high, Samsung can concentrate on these higher-margin products and not compete with the Taiwanese companies to supply panels to the low-price TV brands like Vizio.
Mr. Birnbaum said he expects the good times to last, in part because customers are likely to replace their L.C.D. sets much more often than their old C.R.T. sets.

"The difference between C.R.T. and L.C.D. is not how long the TV will last but how long is that technology good for," he said. "When you bought a C.R.T. TV, the only big change you saw was the change from black-and-white to color." L.C.D. sets are getting bigger, and increasing in resolution and quality, leading to a market similar to computers.

"You may have bought a PC that will last for a long time, but the technology changes, and that's why you upgrade," he said.
Mr. Birnbaum is looking toward a day when what is called high definition today is simply not good enough.
"The next wave of resolution will be 8 times the resolution of H.D.," he predicted of high-definition sets, noting that Samsung expects to start making displays that are roughly 2000 pixels by 4000 pixels. The company hasn't started building a plant that would do this, but it is starting to talk about the idea with potential customers.

"We're not trying to force the market to move," he said. "But sometimes technology surprises you and things pull in much quicker than you expect.

Re: Plasma v lcd

Beolab — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:29:50 GMT

The thing with the new Samsung LED LCD is the black level not the brightness level! The Samsung F96 can dim or even turn the LED lamp off.. = Zero black... The F96 consists of 400 LEDs and the processor have full control of every one!

So the brightness level are the same as on average LCD with 500cd/m2.. I experienced it yesterday and the picture was outstanding.. It´s looks pretty funny when you look at a pitch black scene.. The screen turn of the the hole panel for a tenth of a second.. = Pitch black...

Take a look at your local dealer...

Regards