General Forum

Re: i miss b&o products

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:47:25 GMT

The Beonic Man:
I forgot to mention...
I personally think that B&O have become very lazy. In the past they put much more effort into their products to make them stand out and be the best. Now, because they have firmly established the brand, and through ever increasing media coverage (use of products in TV shows, films etc) coupled with the fact that celebs and alike have introduced ever increasing premiums for products; they now perhaps think that they needn't bother going to quite the same lengths in order to sell a product because, at the end of the day, no matter how much we might be passionate about our brand, B&O is only concerned with its end of year figures. These are what count and what keeps it alive. It raises its prices, it becomes lazier, because it can and because its what so many other companies do. Tragic, but the reality of living in 2007/8.
Simon.

it's called running a business , don't attack bno , attack the greedy governments and their prohibitive tax regimes

bno as a tiny company simply can't afford the enormous r&d outlay of a sony or panasonic , give them a break

for what they do - they're amazing

Re: i miss b&o products

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:44:31 GMT

The Beonic Man:
My take on all of this...
I can only be honest and say that I thoroughly enjoy reading 355f's posts always. I am not threatened at all by what he writes but I think there are some members that are. It depends what kind of person you are and how sensitive you are. People get attached to their brands and will fight to the death for them. Consider football crowds and the crazy and often dangerous psychology that goes with some fans. It is also human nature to have a need to 'belong' to a group. I have come up against the same in the MAC forum because I voiced my very honest opinions about what I had bought. I ignored people that responded rudely; those that were ignorant and those that only posted to provoke a reaction, which I didn't give. I like intelligent people and I like a good and healthy debate and 355f certainly falls into that category.
This is an open forum and people should be allowed to express their views whatever they may be. Of course they should be given in a polite and non threatening context and I can't think of a single post by 355f that can be described otherwise. Nobody is more passionate about B&O than I, but neither am I naive. I know full well that B&O ask a high premium for the BV7 because we live in a world where increasingly, people will pay silly money for products, just to have them. I know because I am one of these people! But the very clear difference is that I knew what I was buying into, and why I was doing it. I made a choice. To be ignorant of the fact (and all 355F is does is state facts very clearly) is to your own detriment and you are clearly delluding yourself for reasons known only to yourself. I suspect its a way to justify your purchase and to feel sure you made the right one, which make sense of course.
B&O have made products in the past that DO justify their cost, many of us would agree to that. The Lab 5s, the Lab 9s, the BS9000 are all products that spring to mind. In fact, probably most of the audio products including the speaker range. The Avant too was a clear winner when it came to justifying cost. But, the same cannot be said of the BV7 and I am in complete agreement. There's no way at all that this TV should command the price it does.The simple truth is that they charge it because people pay it, and its as simple as that.
I hope this debate can continue because it is a good one. There is no need for apologies on either side and if someone feels upset or angry then they need to ask themself why they are taking it personally? That is not a fault of the poster.
A a footnote, 355f has arguably more experience than anyone on this forum with TV technology as it is the very field that he works in and has done for 15 years. It is ignorant to question someone with that expertise ad inside knowledge of what really goes into a panel and what comes out of the factory. For crying out loud, a 7-40 probably costs less than £500 to manufacture! The markup in retail is always about 200% as an absolute minimum, I can't imagine what it is wth B&O. Let's now continue looking at the facts.
Simon.

"I have come up against the same in the MAC forum because I voiced my very honest opinions about what I had bought. I ignored people that responded rudely; those that were ignorant and those that only posted to provoke a reaction,"

and you were surprised by a negative reaction to your 'i want a mac to run windows on and basically apple suck and you're all mindless fanboys' posts ?

Re: i miss b&o products

moxxey — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:52:40 GMT

A a footnote, 355f has arguably more experience than anyone on this forum with TV technology as it is the very field that he works in and has done for 15 years. It is ignorant to question someone with that expertise ad inside knowledge of what really goes into a panel and what comes out of the factory. For crying out loud, a 7-40 probably costs less than £500 to manufacture! The markup in retail is always about 200% as an absolute minimum, I can't imagine what it is with B&O. Let's now continue looking at the facts.

Trust me, it's certainly not a fact that a BV7-40 costs £500 to produce. I'd say closer to £1500 if you factor in the production, calibration and other issues that make up the production of this (somewhat) hand-built TV.

Also, if people actually think my comments are 'violent', I'm genuinely surprised. I have no issues with 355F at all, but I'm certainly capable of making my personal opinion on product quality, perceived value and whether a product compares or not to a rival.

Re: i miss b&o products

beocool — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:56:09 GMT

I have read this thread thoroughly. I don't own a BV7 and have too little experience with it so I'm not going to add any comment on the subject here. But I have to say that I agree completely with Simon about 355f. 355f is clearly an individual with his own opinion and knowledge on this subject. That is a good quality to have on Beoworld in my humble opinion. I understand that you can get insulted by his posts, but why should some of us react so violently? The forum is the place to express different views, and sometimes one agrees or disagrees. That's all in the game.

Re: i miss b&o products

The Beonic Man — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:05:36 GMT

I forgot to mention...

I personally think that B&O have become very lazy. In the past they put much more effort into their products to make them stand out and be the best. Now, because they have firmly established the brand, and through ever increasing media coverage (use of products in TV shows, films etc) coupled with the fact that celebs and alike have introduced ever increasing premiums for products; they now perhaps think that they needn't bother going to quite the same lengths in order to sell a product because, at the end of the day, no matter how much we might be passionate about our brand, B&O is only concerned with its end of year figures. These are what count and what keeps it alive. It raises its prices, it becomes lazier, because it can and because its what so many other companies do. Tragic, but the reality of living in 2007/8.

Simon.

Re: i miss b&o products

The Beonic Man — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:57:00 GMT

My take on all of this...

I can only be honest and say that I thoroughly enjoy reading 355f's posts always. I am not threatened at all by what he writes but I think there are some members that are. It depends what kind of person you are and how sensitive you are. People get attached to their brands and will fight to the death for them. Consider football crowds and the crazy and often dangerous psychology that goes with some fans. It is also human nature to have a need to 'belong' to a group. I have come up against the same in the MAC forum because I voiced my very honest opinions about what I had bought. I ignored people that responded rudely; those that were ignorant and those that only posted to provoke a reaction, which I didn't give. I like intelligent people and I like a good and healthy debate and 355f certainly falls into that category.

This is an open forum and people should be allowed to express their views whatever they may be. Of course they should be given in a polite and non threatening context and I can't think of a single post by 355f that can be described otherwise. Nobody is more passionate about B&O than I, but neither am I naive. I know full well that B&O ask a high premium for the BV7 because we live in a world where increasingly, people will pay silly money for products, just to have them. I know because I am one of these people! But the very clear difference is that I knew what I was buying into, and why I was doing it. I made a choice. To be ignorant of the fact (and all 355F is does is state facts very clearly) is to your own detriment and you are clearly delluding yourself for reasons known only to yourself. I suspect its a way to justify your purchase and to feel sure you made the right one, which make sense of course.

B&O have made products in the past that DO justify their cost, many of us would agree to that. The Lab 5s, the Lab 9s, the BS9000 are all products that spring to mind. In fact, probably most of the audio products including the speaker range. The Avant too was a clear winner when it came to justifying cost. But, the same cannot be said of the BV7 and I am in complete agreement. There's no way at all that this TV should command the price it does.The simple truth is that they charge it because people pay it, and its as simple as that.

I hope this debate can continue because it is a good one. There is no need for apologies on either side and if someone feels upset or angry then they need to ask themself why they are taking it personally? That is not a fault of the poster.

A a footnote, 355f has arguably more experience than anyone on this forum with TV technology as it is the very field that he works in and has done for 15 years. It is ignorant to question someone with that expertise ad inside knowledge of what really goes into a panel and what comes out of the factory. For crying out loud, a 7-40 probably costs less than £500 to manufacture! The markup in retail is always about 200% as an absolute minimum, I can't imagine what it is wth B&O. Let's now continue looking at the facts.

Simon.

Re: i miss b&o products

moxxey — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:40:03 GMT

355f:
In the case of the BV7 we found , contrary to a few opinions that , yes it as a good product, yes it is better than the MK11 but probably by 15% and this was my original view. It did and does not represent a huge step forward which reading some reviews would lead one to believe.

I agree with that. Hell, it's not even that much better than my current BV7-32. Perhaps 20% better? However, I need the extra HDMI sockets, would like the larger screen and it might last me a few years longer than my current BV7-32. For this reason, I'm upgrading to the BV7-40 MKIII and expecting delivery soon.

I agree with your comments about the UK. The last few times I've been in to my local dealer, there were a couple in their 50s or 60s who seemed to have around £10K to spend and wanted a TV and speakers - you couldn't imagine them walking in to Dixons or anywhere similar. They have a lot of disposable incoming - perhaps through housing - and they want what they think is the 'best' (quality product, service, support).

The snag with luxury items is that, as profits are so high, you only need to sell a small number compared to small-margin consumer technology. B&O might only need to sell 1 TV for every 5 that the local Sony dealer might need to shift.

Re: i miss b&o products

355f — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:07:02 GMT

Beolab:
soundproof:

I think one should cut 355f a little slack.
He is very positive on the BV4 in combination with BeoSystem 3, considering it the best processed plasma image to be had now. That's not being on a crusade against B&O.
He is critical of B&O LCD connectivity, more than of image quality. And then I think he and Beolab have a fight going due to the fact that Beolab seems to have missed that 355f makes his living making televisions and other CE components. 355f has pointed out that a few claims made of BV7-40 performance do not correspond with the state of the art in LCD.
===
I think a lot of this would be avoided if people began realising that the mad rush for 1080p is a fool's errand given the paucity of sources for the same. It's forcing manufacturers to focus on the wrong things, to the detriment of all products on the market.
For my money, B&O represents a package that few other manufacturers can rival, and BV7 with BeoSystem 3 on board is a massively overengineered piece of kit compared to what you'll ordinarily find out there. I do seem to recollect that 355f owns one of those, so how anti-B&O can he be?

Yes i now for shore that Mr 355f have bin into the electronics around the world for 15 years and so on and on...But sometimes he just make statements just to be mean to all BV7 buyers... That the only combination to own is the BV4 + BS3 or else you most be stupid it sounds like...
Or the technology in BV7 MKIII are 18 month old...
Small silly paper driver like a clock radio doesn't need to run in at all on BL 8000.. But the fact it isn't any paper drivers i have discovered with picture and all..
And more and more statements like that make me and others angry.. I think some buyers have consider to buy a different brand because 355f statements that aren't true sometimes...
I think and hope the most people here know that B&o aren't the best high end brand in the world.. I didn't buy my equipment with the intention that i bought the best TV or speakers in the world or something.. I just love B&o and hope i got the most out of it....I bought it because of the design work of art, quality and mysticism... And they are good overall not in particular or optically i think..

Regards

Well Christmas is soon upon us and its the season of goodwill!!

I am certainly not running a crusade against the BV7 and not against certain members whom I have never met!! that would be plain silly- So full aplologies to any individual that feels annoyed.

We all agree that B&O represents something special, we all agree that they will neevr compete against the panasonics of this world and we would never want them to. B&O is expensive as are many 'lifestyle brands' which is increasingly what BnO has become. I love the style of the BV7 and feel it looks more BnO than the BV4 or 9 and it not a bad performer.

However, at a time when the major brands have collapsed the pricing structure to the extent that plasma and LCD has dropped by approx 50% in say 3 years ,BnO profits are clearly huge as the prices have increased and as has been pointed out- 'if you cant afford it- dont buy it' But BnO should be doing a far far better job in some cases and trying a lot harder rather than take the view the customer will pay no matter what and as a result make profits which any other electronics brand can only dream about. B&O cusomers want style and exclusivity, we know its not leading edge but we want products that at least give status quo to a good sub brand.

We all have a choice as consumers- and I do not seek to criticize those that make a purchase that doesnt fit with my thinking!! however when opinions are expressed that indicate a product is the best in its field, or the latest version is groundbreaking , I feel it would be good to justify such claims in a wider context and find out how many individuals feel a product is 'simply the best there is' and more importnantly why?? ; but in so doing some individuals feel the need to justify further an original post when it transpires other posters do not necassarily feel the same way about a product. That way a proposed purchaser can look at a forum such as this- which in my eyes is not meant to be blind appreciation for the products and profits that BnO make, but rather a balanced view and in so doing said purchaser will be happy they came on the site and return to it as it was informative.

In the case of the BV7 we found , contrary to a few opinions that , yes it as a good product, yes it is better than the MK11 but probably by 15% and this was my original view. It did and does not represent a huge step forward which reading some reviews would lead one to believe.

To remain strong a company needs good profit but it cant linger on the reputation of the avant as a flagship product, the BV4 and BS3 is more like it as are the BL9 and the 5. But with the profits Bn) is making from LCD and its earlier loudspeakers they should be working a lot harder to provide higher performance and quality. The success of BnO in the UK is largely due to a strong housing market and 'surplus cash' in the economy- many purchases are impulse buys. This market is now getting tougher, there will be less of these buyers ( all upmarket brands are finding this out) So BnO could be caught with some products that do not deserve the price premuims attached to them and markets can be cruel to such a business- pity the dealers who will pay the price.

No one is always right, sometimes by reasoned debate one can 'read through' the posts and make ones own judgement and I am more than happy to take any critisism , providing the aforementioned is fact rather than fiction- otherwise the point of posting at all is totally lost.

Re: i miss b&o products

soundproof — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 05:54:27 GMT

moxxey:
B&O are trying to be the supercar of the AV world. We all know that we couldn't justify the price of certain supercars - of which we never complain are overpriced - but there is a demand and people will always buy exclusivity.

Well put, and absolutely true. I have a pair of supercar speakers right in front of me as I'm writing this. Similarly with the design and workmanship that goes into BeoVisions. Mine puts a smile on my face every morning -- and I'm certain that the member here who recently got a black BV7-40 with black 7-4 to match with his BL5s gets a frisson of enjoyment from merely seeing that setup, even before switching it on.

And kudos to B&O for being able to maintain that kind of premium exclusivity and workmanship. Nothing wrong in that.

I still think that a B&O enthusiasts site should be able to discuss both the pro's and con's openly. And for every superenthusiastic pro, there is bound to be a con -- as B&O can't be all things to all people. I do think the discussions will give the brand's developers a hint as to what is important, or not, in their planning -- and as such it's valuable.

Re: i miss b&o products

Beolab — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 05:37:50 GMT

soundproof:

I think one should cut 355f a little slack.
He is very positive on the BV4 in combination with BeoSystem 3, considering it the best processed plasma image to be had now. That's not being on a crusade against B&O.
He is critical of B&O LCD connectivity, more than of image quality. And then I think he and Beolab have a fight going due to the fact that Beolab seems to have missed that 355f makes his living making televisions and other CE components. 355f has pointed out that a few claims made of BV7-40 performance do not correspond with the state of the art in LCD.
===
I think a lot of this would be avoided if people began realising that the mad rush for 1080p is a fool's errand given the paucity of sources for the same. It's forcing manufacturers to focus on the wrong things, to the detriment of all products on the market.
For my money, B&O represents a package that few other manufacturers can rival, and BV7 with BeoSystem 3 on board is a massively overengineered piece of kit compared to what you'll ordinarily find out there. I do seem to recollect that 355f owns one of those, so how anti-B&O can he be?

Yes i know for shore that Mr 355f have bin into the electronics around the world for 15 years and so on and on...But sometimes he just make statements just to be mean to all BV7 buyers... That the only combination to own is the BV4 + BS3 or else you most be stupid it sounds like...

Or the technology in BV7 MKIII are 18 month old...

Small silly paper driver like a clock radio doesn't need to run in at all on BL 8000.. But the fact it isn't any paper drivers i have discovered with picture and all..

And more and more statements like that make me and others angry.. I think some buyers have consider to buy a different brand because 355f statements that aren't true sometimes...

I think and hope the most people here know that B&o aren't the best high end brand in the world.. I didn't buy my equipment with the intention that i bought the best TV or speakers in the world or something.. I just love B&o and hope i got the most out of it....I bought it because of the design work of art, quality and mysticism... And they are good overall not in particular or optically i think..

Regards

Re: i miss b&o products

moxxey — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 05:30:35 GMT

That's all fine, but then take in to account personal preference. Negativity about price and so on is fine, but we need to remember that this is the wrong forum for a one-man crusade against B&O's pricing structure. Yep, I'd agree some of the BVs are way over priced, but in some ways that also brings exclusivity. As good as the Pioneer Kuro is, it's still an affordable average consumer product. B&O are trying to be the supercar of the AV world. We all know that we couldn't justify the price of certain supercars - of which we never complain are overpriced - but there is a demand and people will always buy exclusivity.

With B&O, you're never going to get them to compete with average consumer-orientated products nor be market-leaders in terms of technology (Pioneer, Panasonic and others are always going to be at least a year ahead). However, they do know how to produce the supercar of AV technology and their build quality, prestige and exclusivity still appeals, which is why we can't complain that the TVs are so expensive.

355F doesn't own a BV7-40, as far as I can remember.

Re: i miss b&o products

soundproof — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 03:19:16 GMT

I think one should cut 355f a little slack.

He is very positive on the BV4 in combination with BeoSystem 3, considering it the best processed plasma image to be had now. That's not being on a crusade against B&O.

He is critical of B&O LCD connectivity, more than of image quality. And then I think he and Beolab have a fight going due to the fact that Beolab seems to have missed that 355f makes his living making televisions and other CE components. 355f has pointed out that a few claims made of BV7-40 performance do not correspond with the state of the art in LCD.

===

I think a lot of this would be avoided if people began realising that the mad rush for 1080p is a fool's errand given the paucity of sources for the same. It's forcing manufacturers to focus on the wrong things, to the detriment of all products on the market.

For my money, B&O represents a package that few other manufacturers can rival, and BV7 with BeoSystem 3 on board is a massively overengineered piece of kit compared to what you'll ordinarily find out there. I do seem to recollect that 355f owns one of those, so how anti-B&O can he be?

Re: i miss b&o products

moxxey — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 02:53:45 GMT

Jez:
Sure, but at the same time i've plenty of friends using the latest Samsung LCD 40" units and have seen many other latest models on the market and my BV7-40" picture still kicks *** on the lot.

You'll never convince 355F, he seems immensely negative about B&O TVs at the moment. The BV7-40 MKIII panel is definitely not 18 months out of date., either.

The thing is, we all agree that the BV7-40 isn't worth £8.5K, but then we go out and buy regardless. So, the demand is still intact. If this demand remains, they'll never need to reduce the price - B&O set internal targets and, if these are met/exceeded, there's no need to change.

355F - you can't go on a one man crusade against the BV7-40, people can make their own minds on a) picture quality, b) performance and c) whether they can justify the price.

Re: i miss b&o products

Jez — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 01:16:38 GMT

Sure, but at the same time i've plenty of friends using the latest Samsung LCD 40" units and have seen many other latest models on the market and my BV7-40" picture still kicks *** on the lot. On top of that with integrated DSS kit, DVD unit, Master Link, Motor stand and the ease of use with the simplicity that it integrates with all my other gear B&O and non B&O. I for one can justify it's price because value is in the eye of the beholder and if it was even more expensive I would still buy it because there isn't another product like it.

Latest specs don't always mean the best picture and overall performance.

Re: i miss b&o products

355f — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:09:56 GMT

Jez:
Yes, the slow adaptation of basic technology is frustrating sometimes, eg: HDMI or how long it took for DVD1 to come out. Personally think that DVD2 is 2 years late and pointless. Others are understandable, eg: Blu ray, HD DVD.

Yes frustrating for the customer but not for BnO they dont make 60% margin for nothing!

If they adopt new technology it costs and their profits would be less- if customers buy what they presently offer- BV7 with panels already 18 months out of date ect then why bother!