General Forum

Re: Cables - for the last time?

soundproof — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:09:11 GMT

Puncher:
not so many years ago the same Hifi press that preach these expensive cables today used to recommend good old solid strand domestic 2.5mm2 twin and earth power cable!

I read a fun article by one of the designers behind McIntosh amplifiers. He wrote that they used precisely such wire for their setups at conventions and demos, but they had to stop. Why?

Because audio "enthusiasts" were so upset by the wire that they never got around to discussing the McIntosh amp's, the people just wanted to criticize the choice of cables. McIntosh didn't make connects, but had to put "accepted" brand name cables on their equipment before people would start discussing the units they were trying to sell, and not how they were connected.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Puncher — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:02:04 GMT

Beobird:

Peter:
You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

If we're talking scart cables carrying a multitude of low voltage signals in the same cable then screening is important to prevent crosstalk/interference from other signals or externally. Good quality connectors are also important to ensure a good, reliable, low resistance connection that is immune to tarnishing etc. For speaker cables, given a reasonable length (2m as you say) I'm firmly of the opinion that good connections and a good cross sectional area are all that really counts (not so many years ago the same Hifi press that preach these expensive cables today used to recommend good old solid strand domestic 2.5mm2 twin and earth power cable!

Again, if B&O go to all the trouble to design a pair of world class speakers would they really let them loose on the world with inadequate cables that were going to dent their performance!

BTW it would be interesting to trace the origin of the 10% "rule" - my money's on the equipment/cable manufacturers

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Beobird — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:47:47 GMT

wirralsimon:

Best get the $45.000 ones, just to be sure.

Beobird:
Peter:
You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

Yeah , but in audioworld there is a rule: "spend 10% of your setup on cables". So you need a 450.000 setup first

Re: Cables - for the last time?

wirralsimon — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:39:41 GMT

Best get the $45.000 ones, just to be sure.

Beobird:
Peter:
You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Beobird — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:08:22 GMT

Peter:
You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Peter — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:45:12 GMT

You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

Re: Cables - for the last time?

soundproof — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:21:36 GMT

wirralsimon:
Funny you should mention that. The thread linked to above starts with a fairly frank admission that cables don't make that big a difference but by the end of the thread half the participants are discussing what the flaws in the testing process were that meant that the test failed to spot the differences that do so clearly exit between cables when the cables are used knowingly. The level of denial involved is truly scary and does make me think I should go into the cable business!

I am filled with regret that I haven't made a living in high-end hi-fi -- it is clear this is a field where a significant portion of P.T. Barnum's favourite kind of people have gathered together to support hi-fi manufacturers to the limit of their bank accounts.

I have also read the thread to the bottom, and found the same willingness to continue believing in "the miracle of ultraexpensive cables." On the other hand, how do you explain to yourself, your better half and your acquaintances that the 45.000 dollar cable can be replaced with a 100 dollar one? You can't, particularly not if you have one snaking along your listening room floor.

Very amusing. If these cables delivered the effects their manufacturers claim then we would be inundated with incontrovertible double-blind-tests showing to the fact.

Re: Cables - for the last time?

wirralsimon — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:49:45 GMT

Funny you should mention that. The thread linked to above starts with a fairly frank admission that cables don't make that big a difference but by the end of the thread half the participants are discussing what the flaws in the testing process were that meant that the test failed to spot the differences that do so clearly exit between cables when the cables are used knowingly. The level of denial involved is truly scary and does make me think I should go into the cable business!

Puncher:
I'm impressed that you think that this is an end to it - there will always be someone (with this amount of money or not) who earnestly believes that the Emporer is wearing new clothes - beauty genuinely is in the eye of the beholder!
There's nothing you can say that will convince them otherwise - Science or other folk's opinions are never enough! Just wait until the $100K cables turn up - clarity, depth of stage, air, dynamics, previously unheard of - anyone fancy going into business making cables??

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Puncher — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:55:41 GMT

I'm impressed that you think that this is an end to it - there will always be someone (with this amount of money or not) who earnestly believes that the Emporer is wearing new clothes - beauty genuinely is in the eye of the beholder!

There's nothing you can say that will convince them otherwise - Science or other folk's opinions are never enough! Just wait until the $100K cables turn up - clarity, depth of stage, air, dynamics, previously unheard of - anyone fancy going into business making cables??

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Craig — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:09:02 GMT

Thats it from now on when someone starts a cable debate. You just know there will a link to this thread. Great thread BTW.

Craig

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Medogsfat — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:39:17 GMT

In the words of Nelson Muntz

Chris.

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Puncher — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:51:44 GMT

It's actually worse than that! - Silver is the best conductor! Copper is second and Gold is a lowly third! Gold is used (normally as a plating) for connectors because of its inert properties and therefore its corrosion resistence.

If I read the chart correctly Silver is only $14.5/ounce compared to Gold's $800 therefore you could have the same cable 55 times cheaper or 55 times thecross sectional area - Measure the resistance of that if you can

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Mr10Percent — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:06:51 GMT

Well here’s something for the electrical engineers amongst you to work out (and check my numbers) from a metallurgist:-

Current price of gold on London Fix is currently around $800/ounce

$45,000 currently buys 56.25 ounces or 1,750g of pure 4-9’s gold (24k)

Gold which has the best electrical properties of any metal at standard temperature so I am lead to believe. Mechanically it aint that strong but it can be braided and coated

Assuming you can draw a 2.5mm diameter wire, you should be able to form nearly 4 equal lengths of 5 meter long cable.

Knock a couple of mm off the length of each for your solid gold interconnects and away you go.

Thus (If I get my units right), for 45 grand one can have a stereo set of solid gold speaker cables. No copper rubbish, no sound degrading oxygen, solid gold.

Does that sound like a real bargain?

10%

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Peter — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:29:50 GMT

The problem I have is with Hi-Fi magazines peddling the nonsense that to get the best from your system that you need to spend what I regard as an obscene amount on cables. The reviews also bang on about the way the sound suddenly springs into focus and the great depth exposed by some mains cable. I think this is tantamount to fraud.

Now I can tell the difference between speakers. I can also tell some record players and cartridges apart and some CD players do sound better than others - in my case usually because the old one needs servicing! I can also tell cassette players from record players - the hiss! - and if really pressed, can distinguish some amplifiers. For me to do this, there are clearly differences that are quite large and scientific testing can show variation in frequency response and other large changes in the way the music is reproduced which tend to back up my ability.

Cables have no such measurable differences and this is where science ends and mysticism comes in. I am willing to believe that there are people who can detect subtle differences that I am simply not capable of. However for me to believe in differences that they hear, they have to prove it and the DBT is the most scientific way I know.

If I play you some music through a set of Beolab 6000s and then through some Beolab 5s, I reckon all of us could tell the difference using an A/B/X trial. Play some 4000s and 6000s and I would probably expect the more experienced to tell them apart but the cloth eared to get some wrong (I put myself in the latter group!)

Why should we expect different treatment for any of the audio components when the differences are touted by Hi-Fi magaines to be so clear - and that is without any comparison tests!! I would like to see some British magazine have some guts and do a similar DBT but this time do as James Randi has suggested and do the test properly with the full test being completed. And if there are no differences, drop all this nonsense about cables for good.

Re: Cables - for the last time?

Puncher — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:05:23 GMT

soundproof:

Puncher:
You can't be expelled for spouting common sense.
Well, the temperature on audiophile forums can get quite high, and amazingly it's often common sense that is under attack.
I particularly like the: "I can hear a difference, and if you can't then something's wrong with your ears" line of attack. Or when they state that "hi-fi is special, and science has yet to catch up with why this is important, but it is."
It's actually all quite amusing, as long as you're not spending 45.000 Dolares Americanos on a short stretch of interconnect.

You're right - I should retract my statement, many have gone to the gallows for just exactly that!