General Forum

Re: 4 speaker for music

Alex — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:12:12 GMT

When I had a surround sound, it sure helped in making things seem 'deeper', but overall I felt it made things really vague and just 'generic'. I found I couldn't position where music was coming from.

Re: 4 speaker for music

Jandyt — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 11:41:24 GMT

I'm sorry Alex, but I disagree.
Ok the soundstage will be different, but who's to say that is a bad thing?
If you have two left speakers on your left, and two right speakers on your right then any sound which is meant to come from a left speaker will seem to come from a point between the two left speakers (providiing they are on the same volume)
Similarly a sound which is supposed to emanate from an imaginary point between the two front speakers will then seem to come from an imaginary point in the middle of the room.
Your argument that if the sound was recorded for two speakers it should be played through two, conflicts with the idea that cube (Beovox 2500) tweeters should be distanced from the main speakers as this widens the sound stage.
What's wrong with widening the sound stage and deepening it too?

Andy T.

Re: 4 speaker for music

Alex — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:33:18 GMT

If the recording was made for two speakers, then it should be played on two speakers.

Think of it this way, if a film producer shot a film for the old 'square' TVs (4:3) you wouldn't cut the tops and bottoms of to make it fit a widescreen display (16:9). You'd be losing a lot of the picture.

In the same way with audio, if you play music through four speakers, you're basically destroying what a lot of audio engineers and producers spend a lot of time over, soundstage (making the instruments appear to be in front of you, positioned differently).

Re: 4 speaker for music

Tom — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:14:17 GMT

MartinW:
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here is that when you select the SPEAKER 4 option, the processor in the TV (BeoVision range I am sure of, not sure on other models) actually plays the music in what B&O describe as 'Enhanced Stereo' mode.
I can't explain in detail what the processing does, but if you change between SPEAKER 2 and SPEAKER 4 you will hear the enhanced bass etc as well as the rear speakers coming on.
Martin

AFAIK, what B&O calls "enhanced stereo" is nothing else than double stereo, which means 4 speakers.

Re: 4 speaker for music

MartinW — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:58:56 GMT

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here is that when you select the SPEAKER 4 option, the processor in the TV (BeoVision range I am sure of, not sure on other models) actually plays the music in what B&O describe as 'Enhanced Stereo' mode.

I can't explain in detail what the processing does, but if you change between SPEAKER 2 and SPEAKER 4 you will hear the enhanced bass etc as well as the rear speakers coming on.

Martin

Re: 4 speaker for music

Ken — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:38:26 GMT

I very often use Speaker 4 mode for music. I think it get the room filled with music much better and you don't have one end of the room with loud music and another end with low music.

From own experience you need however to have 4 speakers of the same type or very close to. 6 months back I had Penta III as fron and BL3 as rear, and they are both very good speakers with very good sound, BUT the sound is very different. The Pentas are kind of soft and round in sound (80's style) and the the BL3's are crisp clear and very detailed. In Speaker 4 mode you get a very stange experience. You hear some thing from the front and others from the rear. Mainly due to this I changed my front Pentas to BL9's. In terms of mid and high end the BL3's are are very close to the 9's. In the low end the 3's cannot match the 9's in any way, but low end is not a big issue.

I'm very happy with my current set-up with ALT speakers all over (7.4 as center). This set-up is, in my opinion, perfect for music in both Speaker 2 and 4 mode and of cause for movies in full surround.

Ken

Re: 4 speaker for music

V13WNG — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:14:15 GMT

I'm joining this debate very late on... but (and to use a common BeoWorld phrase!) I thought I'd "add my two cents".....

We listen to MP3 all day long through a set of BeoLab 8000's as fronts with BeoLab 2, and a set of BeoLab 3 as rears. When the 3's were added the sound improved massively (in my own opinion). Maybe it just works best in a retail environment, or just bigger rooms... but Snow Patrol is sounding pretty decent right now!

Re: 4 speaker for music

MartinW — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 10:21:44 GMT

Hi Massimo,

I personally like listening in Speaker 4 mode, even though I trained as a sound engineer and know all the reasons not to!

However, getting a BeoLab 2 is definately the next thing you should do in my opinion, not a pair of BL4's.

You won't really hear any quality of sound on the BL4's compared with the BL8000's, so I just wouldn't bother.

If in doubt, get your local dealer to set them up like that in the store - then you can hear the difference. Or ask for a home demonstration.

I think they would fall short of your expectations!

BeoLab 4000's are way way better, and a used pair wouldn't be much extra cash.

Martin

Re: 4 speaker for music

Alex — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 09:04:34 GMT

It definitely sounds better in most situations. However, a truly exceptional pair of speakers like the BeoLab 5s or 9s or some of the other speakers on the market with special imaging attributes don't need a centre channel at all IMO, the 'phantom image' is more solid than you could possibly want.

You'll be a better judge than me though, I don't own BeoLab 5s

Re: 4 speaker for music

soundproof — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 07:00:19 GMT

Let's not mix pants and skirts, Alex. Don't know if you have an AES account, but you can buy this anyway:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9182

And this recaps a bit of the theory:

http://www.stereotimes.com/ambiophonicsch8.shtml

Do remember that when you're at the location of a live performance, the sound sources are NOT bunched up to the left and right of you, up on the stage. Having a speaker array recreating a faithful distribution of sources would make sense - and with modern processing algorithms this is perfectly possible.
In addition, you are exposed to extensive room reflections, designed purposefully in an acoustically balanced venue. Two speakers in front of you do not reveal that.
Setting up just two speakers isn't faithful to reality, but it does create a very good illusion.

However, SPEAKER 4 or SPEAKER 3 does not recreate the ambiophonic environment, unless taken into account during recording and embedded in the source. Using multi-speaker in that way creates more soundstage distortion than anything else, but it can be good for background listening and it's a nice way of immersing oneself in the music.

Get a proper, multi-channel SACD or DTS recording, where the back channels provide ambience reflections, and you're somewhere else entirely if your processor can deal with it. Then you'll want both 5.1 and 7.2 (with bass panoramic effects) -- and you can't have enough of it.

Re: 4 speaker for music

Alex — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:25:52 GMT

I agree with Soundproof to a point, but when BeoLab 5s, 9s or maybe 3s are used, there is no need IMO! I find the extra speaker just creates 'lumps' in the soundstage and tends to reduce depth (how far a sound can appear to come from behind the speakers, or right in front of your face).

I'll take this chance to point out that more speakers does not equal better sound, it just means more sound (assuming each speaker is adequate to perform to a good standard in the room. If a speaker needs support from others excluding subs to sound good, then it's really not a capable speaker for your needs).

Re: 4 speaker for music

soundproof — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:15:40 GMT

I doubt the BV7 (not MKIII) has the proper scaling algorithms, and I don't know whether the Beosys3 in the MKIII has what was demonstrated to me with a Beosystem 3 running two BeoLab 5s and 1 BeoLab 7-4. The center channel should not overpower the L/R, but is there to fix the soundstage better.

I'll see if I can come up with some links, it's an interesting field. I started out thinking that stereo meant two speakers, but that's not the case, and the "father of stereo" tried long to get it working with three ...

Interestingly, stereo does not mean "two" as is commonly assumed, but solid!

From Wikipedia (who shouldn't write phonic sound, but that's another matter).

STEREOPHONIC SOUND, commonly called stereo, is the reproduction of sound, using two or more independent audio channels, through a symmetrical configuration of loudspeakers, in such a way as to create a pleasant and natural impression of sound heard from various directions, as in natural hearing. It is often contrasted with monophonic (or "monaural", or just mono) sound, where audio is in the form of one channel, often centered in the sound field (analogous to a visual field).

The word "stereophonic" — derived from Greek stereos = "solid" and phōnē = "sound" — was coined by Western Electric, by analogy with the word "stereoscopic".

Re: 4 speaker for music

Tom — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 06:06:33 GMT

thanks for the tips, soundproof.

I have tried out speaker3 mode several times with my BL7-1 and BL8000 setup. I always found that the stereo image was somehow lost, as most of the sound comes from the center and only some effects from the fronts. Could it be that the processor of the BV7 is not good for this?

Re: 4 speaker for music

soundproof — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 03:12:14 GMT

For background listening, particularly if you're moving about the room, four speakers (or more) is very nice.

If you want to deep dive into your music, and discover what your speakers can do, then you want to play the perspective that's been placed in your source - whether stereo, multi-channel, SACD with back acoustics added, etc.

BTW - to have a really good stereo image, you should also use the center speaker! Yes, B&O were right about that, too -- the Beolab 5000 amplifier came with L/C/R speaker connections, and a special center speaker. In classic stereo theory, grounding the image with a center source is considered ideal. (It was just too complicated to create three channels with analog sets, the WAF was extremely low and producers didn't want to issue 3-channel music.)

The BeoSystem 3 does a very good 3-channel stereo mix, due to the new algorithms available for performing such mixes.

I just bought the full set of Mozart operas from the 2006 Salzburg cycle (22 operas) on DVD, with 2-channel PCM and DTS multi-channel. Will be listening to the latter through the winter, and smiling.

And here's a fun trick, to really create concert sound. I shouldn't be revealing it, but we're all BeoWorlders.
I have found that I get a very interesting concert perspective on the sound if I play it in my main room, but also have a pair of speakers playing simultaneously in an adjacent room (the sound really grows on me).
Guess it's a variation on "you can only tell if a pair of speakers are any good by listening to them playing in another room."

Re: 4 speaker for music

Dave — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 01:56:36 GMT

Here here to that!

Get some second hand 4000's for another room, or buy a nice beocom or sere' phone if you want more B&O!