General Forum

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

koning — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:01:56 GMT

Philippe:

I still can't really understand the decision taken by B&O to withdraw the BeoVision 6 family instead of expanding it to a 32" model.
Instead of that, they prefered to launch an almost similar BeoCenter 6 that will never be available in a 32" version (the BV8 will be) : and now that the DAB module isn't mandatory when placing an order, your BeoCenter 6 is now basically an old BV6!! Unbelievable...
I think there would be a huge demand for a basic but neat TV (BeoVision 6 design) with no fuss added (no DVD player, no radio, no nothing), except the usual optional extra (Surround sound, DVB...), 1 or 2 futureproof HDMI sockets, and coming into 26" and 32" versions (who really cares about a 23" anyway?) at a reasonable price (more reasonable than today's BC6 prices, say a 32" at 3000€ would be a good idea).
Danish ways are mysterious sometimes...
Philippe

Many people are thinking the same about that!!

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

soundproof — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:37:09 GMT

If I could get a BS4 that also played DVDs and had surround out, I would connect it to a BV8-32 and a mess of speakers.

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Peter — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:16:28 GMT

Interestingly there is a hotel only model of BV7-32 with no DVD......

Not a lot of people know that!

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Philippe — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:09:13 GMT

I still can't really understand the decision taken by B&O to withdraw the BeoVision 6 family instead of expanding it to a 32" model.

Instead of that, they prefered to launch an almost similar BeoCenter 6 that will never be available in a 32" version (the BV8 will be) : and now that the DAB module isn't mandatory when placing an order, your BeoCenter 6 is now basically an old BV6!! Unbelievable...

I think there would be a huge demand for a basic but neat TV (BeoVision 6 design) with no fuss added (no DVD player, no radio, no nothing), except the usual optional extra (Surround sound, DVB...), 1 or 2 futureproof HDMI sockets, and coming into 26" and 32" versions (who really cares about a 23" anyway?) at a reasonable price (more reasonable than today's BC6 prices, say a 32" at 3000€ would be a good idea).

Danish ways are mysterious sometimes...

Philippe

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

soundproof — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:21:06 GMT

355f:
Whlist i feel the bv7 mk 1 and 11 look very nice the fact is that the picture perfomance is lagging so far behind that this is now only an immpressive tv if you dont turn it on!

Interestingly, the first ads from B&O for BV7 said that: "You spend hours watching television, then you turn it on."

Maybe their subconscious was nudging at their copy? Yes, B&O are going to face a serious challenge from other brands offering strong image quality coupled with acceptable or even very good design expression. And it's a very tough and competitive market - even Pioneer is considering whether it's worth it to keep launching plasma when customers appear to be literally blind to image quality???

The market has gone entirely price mad, and it's putting a squeeze on manufacturers. B&O's dealers are feeling that squeeze particularly hard, since they are competing with the electro-warehouse around the corner - IF they begin selling just a screen, and not the brand and what the entire brand can do for their customers.

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

355f — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:11:07 GMT

soundproof:

I think the last poster has many valid and important points. I will, though, point out that my choices in car, boat and place to live are not informed by how "inexpensively" I can do any of these. The computers I use, the phones I call people up with, the cutlery in the kitchen and the art on the wall all carry a price premium that I associate with art, elegance, expressive design and exclusivity.
I have an original Rolex Daytona 6263 on my wrist. If the function of a watch is solely to tell time, then I should cash it in for a nice BMW instead.
B&O televisions are equally expressions of insights into craftsmanship, design and sculptural art - and as such carry a cachet and a premium.
Sure - picture quality seems to be narrowing on a point on offerings from many brands - but brand value does not.
And as to the connections crazed: how many are aware that HDMI is a hardware lock designed to keep you out of your hardware and content if you are found to not be the legitimate owner of it?
And if you think you need HMDI 1.3, here's a long official AV Science Forum thread on why you should think again:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

I agree with this entirely and in the days of the avant the statement 'B&O tvs are equally expressions of insights into craftsmanship, design and art would have been very relevant. And it had performance to match almost anything for many years.

Does one feel that statement is valid for some of the offerings to day though- does the bv8 fit this criteria.

Whlist i feel the bv7 mk 1 and 11 look very nice the fact is that the picture perfomance is lagging so far behind that this is now only an immpressive tv if you dont turn it on!

This is a first for B&O and replicated by the bv4/5 so whlist its good to show individuality in purchasing there will come a time when one will not be happy to pay 6 times the price for an item made entirely in china that performs no better than its lesser siblings

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

soundproof — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:49:36 GMT

I think the last poster has many valid and important points. I will, though, point out that my choices in car, boat and place to live are not informed by how "inexpensively" I can do any of these. The computers I use, the phones I call people up with, the cutlery in the kitchen and the art on the wall all carry a price premium that I associate with art, elegance, expressive design and exclusivity.

I have an original Rolex Daytona 6263 on my wrist. If the function of a watch is solely to tell time, then I should cash it in for a nice BMW instead.
B&O televisions are equally expressions of insights into craftsmanship, design and sculptural art - and as such carry a cachet and a premium.

Sure - picture quality seems to be narrowing on a point on offerings from many brands - but brand value does not.

And as to the connections crazed: how many are aware that HDMI is a hardware lock designed to keep you out of your hardware and content if you are found to not be the legitimate owner of it?

And if you think you need HMDI 1.3, here's a long official AV Science Forum thread on why you should think again:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

355f — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:29:01 GMT

Bingo:

I ment the title exactly as I said.
They have more then once twisted a truth, yes!. When I mentioned when the Beovision 7 came out, that HDMI was needed from the start to make a futureproof TV, their answer was. B&O costumers do not need that. They don't care about that. How far from the truth can you be, now so many people who bought an expensive Beovison 7 and a lot want to use it for 8 years orso, have big trouble with connection now. On the forum the amount of people who are waiting for HDMI grows. Yes, you may expect more for 10.000 euro in my opinin!
I have mailed Struer often in the past with questions. May times I recieved a nothing saying answer, avoiding cases. For the clearity; I am that critical to every manufacturer.

Firstly, being a manufacturer in China of consumer electronics I can tell you that the traditional audio business is in decline and that few high end manufacturers make any money.

Its easy to say 'told you so' regarding hdmi ect; but the real issue here is nothing to do with hdmi or connesctions for bv7- what is relevant now is that B&O is in a new era of superfast product development by the electronics companies whereby the advances are so great almost month on month ( its doubtful if the customers actually need this- by the way!) make it difficult for B&O to make informed choices. In fact only a few years ago major brands doubted that LCD would really make sigificant inroads to sales because the picture was SO inferior to what was presently available

The adavnces in panel design and electronics almost yearly surpass any new connection options that might have been available to 'futreproof' the BV7- even if hdmi had been made available on the bv7 the advances over the past few years would make it a poor performer in any event and with the pricing increasing even well off individuals will doubt the merits of spending 5 or 6 times the price for a piece of technology. im sure if they had put hdmi on it one could equally argue - where is hmdi 1.1 and 1.3 now? and why cant i have it on my 5 year old bv7 chassis!!

A futureproof product however much you pay for it does not exist and the response at the time that B&O customers dont care about it was probably the correct answer, however for the future all quality tvs will have pretty much the same performance and as the audio and video busienss converges the future is more of concern than the past!

Its very easy to point out the problems but not so easy to state what you would do if you were the CEO of B&O. As china becomes better at design I rather suspect that in the end it will be all badge and little else. I mean what do you think the FOB buying price of the BV8 is??( all made in china) i would hazard a guess that its less than $400 so with more transactions like that you can see how they can maintain what are pretty high margins given the audio business in general. I am not averse to some chinese input but charging sky high prioces like this for a chinese product is a recipe for financial meltdown when word gets out .

I think they have it roughly right in a very tough market, many previous posts by the author refer to how good the mainstream brands are and this may well be true and as in anything the more money you pay, its a law of diminishing returns-but does the 'new B&O' buyer care if the pioneer plasma costs £3000 and the BV9 £15000??? no they dont- so i find it difficult to make the same correlation as previous posts have done.

B&O sales courses are more about buying into B&O as a ditinctive brand ( like LV or Ferrari) and little about the product The sad thing to me about the strategy is that smaller dealers will be out of business pretty quickly, leaving the flagship stores to make the sales to wealthy individuals and thats a risk

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Peter — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:12:50 GMT

I see the BV8 as an MX replacement. The LX was a very beautiful high performance TV - I bought a very late LX6000 new - I seem to remember it was about £1800 in 1992. However that type of TV is now obsolete as a main room TV is expected to do far more. It is also expected to be bigger and have more sources. I still use my 6000 (actually not the original as that was stolen) and still regard it as a superb set, the equal of any other I have. I don't think the BC6/BV6 even comes close in terms of picture quality, but neither does any other LCD set.

I have had a couple MX sets and the BV8 would seem a perfectly acceptable replacement and is priced at an acceptable level for a B&O set. I still think that the early MX sets have a better picture though!

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

david707 — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:38:42 GMT

Roger:
But I would like to see the BeoCenter 6 series expanded to cater for the rest of us, that would like a more traditional centerpiece in our well-arranged living room.
Roger

Agree. BC6/BV6 is a much more appropriate BV3/LX/MX replacement than BV8. There needs to be several different versions to include the popular 32" screen size. Importantly there should an LS type version to cater for those who do not require beolnk etc. The BV8 is certainly not good enough to replace a classy piece of furniture like the LX.

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Bingo — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 04:48:08 GMT

I ment the title exactly as I said.

They have more then once twisted a truth, yes!. When I mentioned when the Beovision 7 came out, that HDMI was needed from the start to make a futureproof TV, their answer was. B&O costumers do not need that. They don't care about that. How far from the truth can you be, now so many people who bought an expensive Beovison 7 and a lot want to use it for 8 years orso, have big trouble with connection now. On the forum the amount of people who are waiting for HDMI grows. Yes, you may expect more for 10.000 euro in my opinin!

I have mailed Struer often in the past with questions. May times I recieved a nothing saying answer, avoiding cases. For the clearity; I am that critical to every manufacturer.

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Jandyt — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:54:58 GMT

Thank you Bingo for starting this very interesting debate.

Andy T.

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Calvin — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:36:19 GMT

B&O at the end of the day is a business; it's purpose is to be a business, turn a profit, and if it doesn't do as well as it should, there should be a reason or someone should be either eplaining or covering for shareholders.

My personal quandry is how UK turnover was down when the buying power of sterling has been so much higher relative to europe (what the with the exchange rate)

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Karel Uyttendaele — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:20:50 GMT

In the end B&O is still making a profit.. healthy enough for them to continue to develop new products. Some markets might be down... others are up.. but the numbers are still in black... and that's what counts!

Karel

Re: Why can't B&O for once be honest?

Roger — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 01:45:07 GMT

Sure, the BeoVision 8 will fit the price range for a lot of B&O customers - but 3/4 of the BV8 customers are still waiting for the 32", so I do think that this effect will be amplified for the financial year.

But there is no denying that other effects play a major role as well: The 7-32 lives in its own world, but the 7-40 does appeal to the feinschmecker segment and they have learned the buzz words for expensive tv's right now: Full-HD and multiple HDMI inputs. Which of course is the reason why B&O is rushing the 7-40 mkIII for the European market. These customers are aware of the brochure from their local cable company telling them that a new box with HDTV and HDMI is just around the corner.

But the BeoVision 8 issue is important: The market is asking for video solutions today - the demand in the audio segment is experiencing stagnation and to a certain degree a drop in sales.

B&O's strategy with the BeoVision 7 & 8 series and the BeoCenter 6 series could have been improved. But I do belive that B&O is ahead of the game with the BeoVision 8 series: the new generation, those that do not buy BeoCom's but stick to mobile phones only, do not use the television in the same way as most people do today. They do not arrange their afternoon to fit a tv schedule, they do not arrange their evening to be centered around a tv and a big sofa. They have a more casual approach to the tv, they leave it on for more hours than most of us but actually watch it less. The demand for this type of casual product that you place where you have the most traffic in the house will be on the increase. A clever product for a new group of customers. But I would like to see the BeoCenter 6 series expanded to cater for the rest of us, that would like a more traditional centerpiece in our well-arranged living room.

Roger