General Forum

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

Step1 — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:42:50 GMT

Yes yes & Yes :) I generally ignore people who say there has been a difference in the quality of 'x' unless they have performed a double blind test! The mind is very powerful at duping itself and it a known fact that memory is not actually very precise! There are of course many exceptions I guess but to a lesser extent!

moxxey:

Puncher:

Call me a sceptic if you will but if there was the slightest improvement in performance I'm pretty sure B&O would have been more than pleased to tell us about it.

I agree. Isn't this a placebo effect where you're so determined there must be changes, you come away thinking "that sounds cleaner, sharper and more defined"? You expect it, so can be talked in to it. Good sales people do this very well. I notice there's a guy at my dealer who always agrees that anything I buy is the best in the range and improved over the previous version, however minor the upgrade.

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

tournedos — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 08:10:09 GMT

Style:
Even if I generally agree with this post I think that the old amps are not a power concumption problem. B&O uses relay switches so when they are off they are really off.

You're right regarding Beolab 6000s - like most other Beolabs of this era they weren't the worst offenders, as they have a separate small transformer for standby circuitry, but still consume almost double the allowed 1W per unit on standby. I'm sure the standby circuitry could've been easily redesigned to pass the limit, but it would've still been a redesign with a lot of mechanical changes, and I believe B&O saw this as a good opportinity to modernize the rest of the product as well. I suppose the cash flow to the manufacturers of the old hybrid amp modules wasn't trivial either - much of that stays now in house due to the ICEpower amps.

The only B&O devices that go completely off are those with a mechanical on/off switch... Even if the main power supply may be switched by a relay, something must control that relay, meaning that parts of the device are on all the time even on standby. The early 80s single transformer units with their NMOS microcontrollers really are rather bad regarding standby power consumption. Even more modern kit such as Beocenter 9500 stay noticeably warm all the time.

EU has worked out some really stupid regulations, but this really isn't one of them. The number of devices that used several watts round the clock mostly doing nothing was getting out of hand even in a typical household. I can clearly see the time I started collecting B&O in my electric bill history, and that was in a really small flat with only a few units constantly plugged in!

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

Style — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 06:38:44 GMT

Puncher:

There are moving pressures and ever tighter legislation on domestic appliance manufacturers to reduce standby or idle power consumption. This means that everything from fridges and freezers through hifi, TV's, AV amps to even mobile phone chargers must reduce the overall or mean power taken from the mains supply. This particularly applies to things permanently connected to the supply, whereby idle power (i.e. power consumed while not "active") becimes a big deal. This, I believe is the real reason for the 6000/8000 upgrade, the old analogue circuitry being less likely to comply with standby power legislation than the class D switching amplifiers that are called ICEpower, which when "off" can be truly off. The resulting higher efficiency will almost certainly make them cheaper to manufacture. The fact that they match the performance of the previous AB amps is a bonus, I wouldn't judge these implementatitions necessarily the same as the DSP controlled and driven BL5's - just compare the range of quality of class AB amps, the amp topology is not a measure of quality!

Even if I generally agree with this post I think that the old amps are not a power concumption problem. B&O uses relay switches so when they are off they are really off. The idle power consumption is likely the same with the new amps, or if improved it is because of better design of the monitoring circutry that switches the speaker on or better idle power supply design.

Manufacturing cost and less power consumption when on is more likely the reason behind the switch to ICEpower.

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

Tod Daniel — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 20:28:56 GMT

Timeless elegance! The most beautiful B&O speaker ever. I've seen these for 18 years and I still love them! One day when im really old and ive lived all of my adventures, I will have a pair of these in my little beach house!

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

Puncher — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:16:31 GMT

There are moving pressures and ever tighter legislation on domestic appliance manufacturers to reduce standby or idle power consumption. This means that everything from fridges and freezers through hifi, TV's, AV amps to even mobile phone chargers must reduce the overall or mean power taken from the mains supply. This particularly applies to things permanently connected to the supply, whereby idle power (i.e. power consumed while not "active") becimes a big deal. This, I believe is the real reason for the 6000/8000 upgrade, the old analogue circuitry being less likely to comply with standby power legislation than the class D switching amplifiers that are called ICEpower, which when "off" can be truly off. The resulting higher efficiency will almost certainly make them cheaper to manufacture. The fact that they match the performance of the previous AB amps is a bonus, I wouldn't judge these implementatitions necessarily the same as the DSP controlled and driven BL5's - just compare the range of quality of class AB amps, the amp topology is not a measure of quality!

edit : sorry, this post was begun before the previous poster and is not to be considered a reply to that. In all such cases, listen and judge for yourself.

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

MartinW — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 18:14:35 GMT

Ha, sounds like a good sales person indeed! No in my opinion there genuinely is a big improvement - I actually came across it almost by accident when we commented about how amazing a particular pair of 8000's sounded in the showroom. They were 8002's and this was the first time I had really paid them any attention - having assumed due to the lack of PR about the change from B&O that they wouldn't sound any different but they definitely do. This lead to a good hour of comparing the four models against each other. I would recommend a comparison on the 6's or 8's if you ever get the chance and would like to hear from anyone else who has tested this?

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

moxxey — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:57:39 GMT

Puncher:

Call me a sceptic if you will but if there was the slightest improvement in performance I'm pretty sure B&O would have been more than pleased to tell us about it.

I agree. Isn't this a placebo effect where you're so determined there must be changes, you come away thinking "that sounds cleaner, sharper and more defined"? You expect it, so can be talked in to it. Good sales people do this very well. I notice there's a guy at my dealer who always agrees that anything I buy is the best in the range and improved over the previous version, however minor the upgrade.

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

Puncher — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 17:47:25 GMT

Call me a sceptic if you will but if there was the slightest improvement in performance I'm pretty sure B&O would have been more than pleased to tell us about it. I believe the amp change was more about meeting standby power legislation for domestic AV appliances than any other motive (except perhaps being less expensive to manufacture).

My expectation would be the same performance at best, unless the manufacturers are willing to even hint that they may be better.

To be fair to the previous poster, I haven't heard both side by side, in the same listening session. Perhaps he can expand on his comparison experience.

The term ICEpower is not neccessarily a measure of audio quality!

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

MartinW — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 15:49:27 GMT

I have and was blown away by the difference, I also tested the BL8002 vs BL8000. If I had to somehow quantify it, I would say around a 35% improvement in sound, clearer full range sound with definite improved bass. It wouldn't make me want to upgrade existing speakers, but it would definitely stop me getting some cheaper used 6000's over a new pair of 6002/8002.

They have ICEpower amplifiers in now which is where the difference comes from

Re: Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

Evan — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 07:20:55 GMT

Bang & Olufsen says no.

Sound in Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002

ambii — Wed, 04 Jan 2012 04:47:19 GMT

Has anybody listened and compared the Beolab 6000 vs Beolab 6002? Are there any significant changes in sound for a normal human being (read: not a audio freak)?