General Forum

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

Jeff — Wed, 02 Nov 2011 09:03:19 GMT

soundproof:

Quite uninformed comment there, Jeff. You might want to code up your history quotient a touch. The Xerox Parc canard's getting boring - the real story is a lot more telling, and interesting.

Well, you might also want to not assume you know it all and lecture others based on things you read on the Internet, particularly a sycophantic history from Stanford.

My exposure to this story (which is indeed more complex than most realize) is from having worked with a Xerox PARC alumni back in the late 80's. He was also one of two such I interviewed for our team (and who was one of the best s/w guys, particularly at real-time code, I've ever worked with). But really, does that story from Stanford even make sense to you? The Apple engineers asked Jobs to go look at PARC because of what they were doing on Mac, but that means they didn't steal it from PARC?! I've been in this tech business for over three decades, and that's the most inane excuse I've ever heard. The only time you do something like that is if you have a tech licensing agreement with the other company and you want to look/show what they're doing because you think they or you are doing it better, particularly if your version of the concept isn't as far along and want to sell it to your management by showing what it can be not what you have at present. This is also particularly true if you nicked the idea, aren't as far along due to that, and want to sell it.

So please, don't lecture me about uninformed comments if you please. This constant polishing of Jobs apple gets old. He was a very talented person, and a deeply flawed individual, but he wasn't a god no matter what the fan club thinks. One of the things that constantly irritated my PARC guy was the fact that Jobs acted like he was original and innovative and slammed everyone else for copying stuff. He had far less heartburn with Gates because Gates mainly just got about his business of building stuff and didn't go out of his way to shriek that everyone was copying him. Both Jobs and Gates, while innovative game changers who altered the course of technology, both were also absolutely horrible to work for, but I'd still rather have worked with Gates than Jobs.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

soundproof — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 06:57:12 GMT

I want to add something to the discussion.

What's the essence of B&O? When they're at their best, they simplify their users' lives, adding convenience and premium quality to the A/V experience.

It's in their very first product, where they liberated consumers from having to use accumulators when listening to their radios - they called that product "Eliminator". You could plug your radio into the mains.

And that was the essence of B&O for decades, and took them through an impressive series of brilliant products, created for discerning and demanding individuals who wanted oustanding A/V performance.

Then - in the 1980s - they made the erroneous decision to begin providing flash to the status conscious, and gave that priority over function and performance. It was a consequence of the Betamax debacle, and the company deluded itself into thinking that "magic movement" was enough, and that performance was secondary.
Also, instead of accepting the limitations of Masterlink, and moving on, they kept fiddling with it until it was years past its "Use before" date.

B&O began losing customers when they were no longer simplifying their users' lives - when, instead, they began complicating them.

Occasionally, the engineers are allowed to show what they can do - but management and marketing don't support them, and don't tell the B&O story, instead wallpapering the world with supremely boring product shots of home furnishing, and copy that would put a coffeine addict to sleep.

Imagine what could have been done of the Acoustic lens technology when it was launched, B&O were years ahead of where A/V is moving in sound propagation now. In 2003, when the BeoLab 5 was launched, it should have been supported for a year or two with the energy and vigour used for the launch of a major premium car. And it would have added tremendous cachet to the brand - but they pulled back from the magic they had created.

And it will remain an incomprehensible mystery that the company didn't promote - with campaign after campaign after campaign - that you can connect a pair of BeoLabs to your computer, and you're set to make music. B&O was so afraid of cannibalizing itself that it stopped trying to build markets.

The company could have hijacked the entire 18-35 market with active loudspeakers, connected through a B&O box that added convenience to getting sound and music out of your computer, whether fixed or mobile -- and that is precisely what it should have done. Now there are lots of active loudspeakers, most with ICEpower inside, of course. But back then there were only BeoLabs with a shape that fit together with the computer.

So, knees on the floor hands folded, here's to present and new management: go for it, it's not too late, but there aren't many second third fourth fifth chances left.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

TripEnglish — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 20:35:55 GMT

soundproof:
It's nonetheless a given that Apple will move into screen displays for movies, etc - they already have that, among young people, who don't see a difference between their Cinema Display or iMac and a television set, except for the fact that the television set does a lot less.

I think the whole story is in that last line. We've increasingly skipped right past the AppleTV to a Mac Mini as a video peripheral (scaling icons and text etc to look great on a huge TV set), and it leaves one stunned at the junk performance of a set top box.

My only hope is that along with the sleek hardware, they manage to overcome some of the inherent problems of content being limited when not viewed on a traditional computer. With Hulu, for example, there are programs that are only viewable through a web browser and not through an "app"

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

linder — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:21:41 GMT

soundproof:

I don't think voice control is the key to Apple's TV-sets, it's the integration to the cloud. When I updated to iOS5, I suddenly found I could access all the movies and tv-series I had bought over the years on all my Apple peripherals, including the iPhone. Everything I had purchased over the ATV, was available everywhere else, through the cloud (not through downloading for storage on the device, as before). Amazing, of course.

Integration to the cloud is going to be astounding.

I actually discussed voice control with B&O heads of development back in 2006 - it's very attractive, yet has some issues in the A/V context.

There's an override issue when controlling by voice in your living room - there's already substantial noise going on from your speakers, if you're in mid-show, and that needs considering if you wish to eliminate physical devices.

It's nonetheless a given that Apple will move into screen displays for movies, etc - they already have that, among young people, who don't see a difference between their Cinema Display or iMac and a television set, except for the fact that the television set does a lot less.

Good analysis soundproof. I already have the iPhone 4s and have been using Siri often. It really is quite amazing. Siri does work without problem while watching television but of course I am using it on the phone not yelling across the room. Maybe the first implementation of Siri on a TV will be with the iPhone remote controlling an Apple TV. Who knows?

Siri has already replaced my Beotime as an alarm clock.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

elephant — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:36:27 GMT

beocool:

bayerische:

Excellent posts as always Soundproof!

+1

+11

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

soundproof — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:14:26 GMT

I don't think voice control is the key to Apple's TV-sets, it's the integration to the cloud. When I updated to iOS5, I suddenly found I could access all the movies and tv-series I had bought over the years on all my Apple peripherals, including the iPhone. Everything I had purchased over the ATV, was available everywhere else, through the cloud (not through downloading for storage on the device, as before). Amazing, of course.

Integration to the cloud is going to be astounding.

I actually discussed voice control with B&O heads of development back in 2006 - it's very attractive, yet has some issues in the A/V context.

There's an override issue when controlling by voice in your living room - there's already substantial noise going on from your speakers if you're in mid-show. That needs considering if you wish to eliminate physical control devices.

It's nonetheless a given that Apple will move into screen displays for movies, etc - they already have that, among young people, who don't see a difference between their Cinema Display or iMac and a television set, except for the fact that the television set does a lot less.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

Flappo — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:08:21 GMT

Apple is definitely building a television set, according to Nick Bilton the New York Times. The TV, which will include extensive voice control courtesy of Siri, could be announced as soon as late 2012 with a consumer release in 2013. Bilton quotes anonymous sources saying that an Apple television is a "guaranteed product for Apple" because "Steve thinks the industry is totally broken", which is echoed by passages in Steve Jobs' biography.

Bilton says the project has been in the works for years, perhaps as far back as 2007 (the year the iPhone launched and the company launched the Apple TV set-top box. As far as controlling the new set:

It’s the stuff of science fiction. You sit on your couch and rather than fumble with several remotes or use hand gestures, you simply talk: “Put on the last episode of Gossip Girl.” “Play the local news headlines.” “Play some Coldplay music videos.” Siri does the rest.

Of course this experience goes beyond just playing TV shows or the local news. As the line between television programming and Web content continues to erode, a Siri-powered television would become more necessary. You aren’t going to want to flip through file folders or baskets of content, checking off what you want. Telling Siri to “play videos of cute cats falling asleep” would return an endless YouTube stream of adorable napping fur balls.

Bilton firmly believes the television is coming, but says the company "still has quite a bit of work to do on the project", citing the physical design of the TV in particular. He also cites the expense of the display itself, though those prices are falling rapidly.

In a bid to set aside the speculation about if an Apple television is in the works, the piece finishes simply, "it is coming though. It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when."

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

soundproof — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:53:34 GMT

I actually love/like/enjoy B&O more than I do Apple's products. I'm not out to bash B&O - I have spent lots of money on B&O products through the years, and I've had/have great times using them.

B&O lost the plot, they've had terrible management for close to twenty years, yet are still alive and still rank among the world's best brands! What does that say about the staying power of the cachet that was once created? It's phenomenal - but we want substance, not just memories. We all want B&O to outperform again, and when I want to enjoy sound (particularly) and image, I do so in front of a B&O set-up, more than any other.

BUT - they they began selling furniture and design, and forgot they were in A/V experiences that had to be attuned to the age they were in, not the 1980s. It's a huge shame, and I hope the brand recovers and gets going again. The fact that Mantoni is focusing on sound is very promising, and I look forward to spending more money on B&O products in the future - though I do hope that they will face up to the fact that they've been going down the wrong design road for more than twenty years.

And during a period filled with opportunities, they haven't mined a single one, with the exception of their foray into car audio for premium cars. It's painful to behold.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

beocool — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:31:35 GMT

bayerische:

Excellent posts as always Soundproof!

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

soundproof — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:20:03 GMT

SWISS_2:

On the subject of good product invention, versus patent lawsuits filed by Apple, here is an example of how aggressive Apple can actually be:

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20111026-38449.html

Cease and desist order from Cupertino, California ? I don't believe anyone would confuse the two companies. do you ?

There is a saying going around about sometimes being on the pointed end of the stick. This is the dumb end of the stick that picked up something in the street on a hot day. Get back to teamwork, invention, and innovation, Cupertino.

You may want to brush up on copyright law and trademark law, then. If you are to successfully defend your trademark, you need to show that you are policing your trademark.

Apple Computers, which it was called then, paid USD 500 million to Apple records to be allowed to use the name Apple freely, also in contexts where music products were being promoted or sold. Apple has spent considerably more on protecting the trademark through the years, and needs to continue to do so, particularly now that they have dropped Computers from their name.

Therefore, these lawsuits are necessities, to be able to demonstrate in a court of law that the company is protecting its domain -- if it fails to do so, when such instances have been brought to its attention, this fact can be used against it in other cases.

It's a snake-biting-its-tail thing, and I'm sure they'd like to not have to bother. The law derives from the same property protection statutes that arise when someone doesn't fence in, mark or properly protect their property from trespassers - eventually, you may lose the right to possess your property, due to neglect.

But if you're out to whip Apple, then it's a welcome reason to do so, of course.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

Flappo — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:18:33 GMT

I do agree that the JJ days were when BnO had some real product synergy , they really did cover all the bases. Why look elsewhere when they made superb LP players , amps , speakers , cassette decks , tv's, VCR's , the lot ?

Now it's only the speakers and a few of the TV's that seem to really share the same cohesive strategy that bno once had.

The transition from analogue to digital seems to have been the big problem for them . Oh , and the internet.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

bayerische — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:13:59 GMT

Excellent posts as always Soundproof!

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

Flappo — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:02:53 GMT

ie; you've got no rational reply so you rely on childish insults.

Your avatar suits you well.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

Mr10Percent — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:00:40 GMT

Flappo:

Mr10Percent:

1. Inventor of the GUI

2. Inventor of the Click wheel

3. Inventor of the most perfect and high-quality music codec

4. .....

5. .....

Couple more and I'm sure you can get him canonized into the Roman Catholic (or Zen Buddist equivalent) Church.

10

When you've revolutionsed the computer industry ( Apple 2 , Mac etc ) , the mobile phone industry ( iPhone / iOS ), the film industry ( Pixar / Disney ) , the music industry ( ipod / iTunes ), the publishing industry ( Desktop Publishing , iBooks ) , the retail industry ( Apple stores ) and the entire internet ( Tim Berners lee invented the whole thing on a NeXT computer - which morphed into os-x ) , get back to me

I feel enriched - not!

I think some people should get out more and get a life.

Re: Apple & B&O: is imitation the best form of flattery??

SWISS_2 — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:58:30 GMT

On the subject of good product invention, versus patent lawsuits filed by Apple, here is an example of how aggressive Apple can actually be:

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20111026-38449.html

Cease and desist order from Cupertino, California ? I don't believe anyone would confuse the two companies. do you ?

There is a saying going around about sometimes being on the pointed end of the stick. This is the dumb end of the stick that picked up something in the street on a hot day. Get back to teamwork, invention, and innovation, Cupertino.