General Forum

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Rich — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:32:50 GMT

Stan:

Paul Winn:

I am sick to death of people moaning about "Audiophiles lost out to audio files". I bet these are the same people who shunned CD when it was first launched as they listened to their crackly, unlife like records.

I guess I read this differently.

I just thought it was a clever line. I wasn't saying, "Amen, brother, amen!", or bemoaning some lost analog ideal. Formats change, tastes change, technology marches on. What will always survive are excellence as a goal and individual preferences.

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

TripEnglish — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:31:27 GMT

Paul Winn:

I am sick to death of people moaning about "Audiophiles lost out to audio files". I bet these are the same people who shunned CD when it was first launched as they listened to their crackly, unlife like records.

I love being able to find and download a piece of music that i've always wanted. I love not having to walk to a record shop only to be told that the album is either not in stock, not available or will have to imported. I love being able to take my life's music collection anywhere with me in the world. If you want to buy CDs fair enough but don't moan about iTunes, files, downloads - we've never had it so good. And stop dissing Apple - they've done more good for music lovers than anyone! If everyone had stuck with B&O we'd still be playing compact cassettes whilst the hierachy there fought over who would be there centre of the stage!!!

That's like saying McDonald's has done more for burger lovers than anyone.

Compression was born from a need to economize memory resources that were scarce when digital music was in its infancy. That scarcity is maintained somewhat by the extremely thin form factors that portable devices maintain which keeps them just ahead of the development of larger capacity storage media.

With the cost memory dropping precipitously, the advent of viable cloud storage, and affordable wireless data rates, compression may be a 15 year oddity in the history of digital music. Or we may go back to vinyl. That's what people keep telling me.

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

misteUS — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:22:46 GMT

Stan:

Paul Winn:

I am sick to death of people moaning about "Audiophiles lost out to audio files". I bet these are the same people who shunned CD when it was first launched as they listened to their crackly, unlife like records.

I guess I read this differently. I didn't read this as people "moaning" about it. I read it as a rather witty statement of fact - I laughed when I read it and thought "gee, I'm surprized I haven't heard that one before". If you look at the "audiophile" world, full of crazy expensive snake oil and very suspect mythology, was there really any "competition" between audiophiles and audio files (such that one could "lose" to the other)? Let's think about that, one offers total convenience and an extremely low cost of entry (iPod), while the other offers outrageous prices, snobbery, competing standards (SACD vs. DVD-A?) and sound improvements that most people cannot hear, or can hear but don't believe it justifies the price tag. The downloads have proven to be good enough for the market (in general).

Having said this, if there is ever a time when I cannot find CD quality audio files, then I will moan (I do download from Amazon from time to time, but if I love the piece, I will find the CD because it does sound better and I care). If the trend toward crappy, over-boosted mastering continues, and infects quality artists rather than just throw-away pop stars, I will moan... but it seems for every major trend, there is a counter niche that gets filled nicely (see the rise of "audiophile" digital download sites - which, unfortunately, continue to carry on some of the snake oil traditions). I can only hope.

Back on topic, the world has changed. B&O needs to change as well. It seems they have a CEO that understands this. Hopefully, they can evolve to be more relevant without destroying the things we love.

Stan

Clear headed post. I agree with you and feel the same.

Re my comments about the 8000 and 9000.

It is a stretch to think that the 8000 surpass what would be called audiophile speakers in its price range. We are debating subjectivity , yet the 8000 although decent in the mid band would not strike most as superlative in any part of the register. It is an adequate speaker which neded a woofer, let alone a subwoofer, the day it came out of the factory .. The 6000 is not a good speaker IMO. Aside from its outside finish which is as per B&O standard, superb, when one looks at its innard one is likely not to be pleased. The drivers are cheesy, cheap and behave like cheap drivers.. their surround rots in a five years .. I don't know about the 6002 and as I said B&O has heard the chorus and the new line of speakers is better , much better.. Just for the record.. listen in a decent toom to the 4000, then listen to the 6000 ... You tell me ...

Lesly

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Stan — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:51:09 GMT

Paul Winn:

I am sick to death of people moaning about "Audiophiles lost out to audio files". I bet these are the same people who shunned CD when it was first launched as they listened to their crackly, unlife like records.

I guess I read this differently. I didn't read this as people "moaning" about it. I read it as a rather witty statement of fact - I laughed when I read it and thought "gee, I'm surprized I haven't heard that one before". If you look at the "audiophile" world, full of crazy expensive snake oil and very suspect mythology, was there really any "competition" between audiophiles and audio files (such that one could "lose" to the other)? Let's think about that, one offers total convenience and an extremely low cost of entry (iPod), while the other offers outrageous prices, snobbery, competing standards (SACD vs. DVD-A?) and sound improvements that most people cannot hear, or can hear but don't believe it justifies the price tag. The downloads have proven to be good enough for the market (in general).

Having said this, if there is ever a time when I cannot find CD quality audio files, then I will moan (I do download from Amazon from time to time, but if I love the piece, I will find the CD because it does sound better and I care). If the trend toward crappy, over-boosted mastering continues, and infects quality artists rather than just throw-away pop stars, I will moan... but it seems for every major trend, there is a counter niche that gets filled nicely (see the rise of "audiophile" digital download sites - which, unfortunately, continue to carry on some of the snake oil traditions). I can only hope.

Back on topic, the world has changed. B&O needs to change as well. It seems they have a CEO that understands this. Hopefully, they can evolve to be more relevant without destroying the things we love.

Stan

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Jeff — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:09:11 GMT

I agree with you re audiophiles. I've seen quite a few who claim, as in the princess and the pea, that their golden ears are sooo sensitive that they run screaming in pain if they ever hear a lossy file like AAC or MP3 fail miserably at telling the difference between WAV and MP3. Huge rationalization and excuse making usually follows.

But I will differ on Apple. I have some Apple gear, it's slick and works pretty well but the closed system architecture that they insist on, see the iTunes purchased files, has led me to change from buying from iTunes to using Amazon, who use DRM free, 256kpbs VBR for their music sales. Apple is losing business due to their business model. They have done wonders to make music portable, but they are in danger of the world moving on.

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Tod Daniel — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:38:47 GMT

I am sick to death of people moaning about "Audiophiles lost out to audio files". I bet these are the same people who shunned CD when it was first launched as they listened to their crackly, unlife like records.

I love being able to find and download a piece of music that i've always wanted. I love not having to walk to a record shop only to be told that the album is either not in stock, not available or will have to imported. I love being able to take my life's music collection anywhere with me in the world. If you want to buy CDs fair enough but don't moan about iTunes, files, downloads - we've never had it so good. And stop dissing Apple - they've done more good for music lovers than anyone! If everyone had stuck with B&O we'd still be playing compact cassettes whilst the hierachy there fought over who would be there centre of the stage!!!

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Karel Uyttendaele — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:24:34 GMT

The article can be read online too: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/09/ff_bando/all/1

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Rich — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:16:15 GMT

mediabobny:

"Audiophiles lost out to audio files". Brilliant comment.

That was exactly what I was going to say!

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Jeff — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 13:15:07 GMT

misteUS:

Hi

I do believe that B&O has to increase the value proposition. I have been following B&O for a while and there was a point in time where their products were not not only beautiful to behold but also of the highest performance. Somewhere performance has taken the back seat. I would not call the Beolab 8000 or Beolab 6000 high performance products. For their price their only redeeming quality is their utter beauty .. Sound-wise these are not most people would call great sounding... The performance is minimal IMHO ( I own 8000 and 6000). Performance returned however with the Beo 5 speaker and the 9 follwoed suit as a matter of fact the new slew of Beolabspeakers are pretty good sounding witht he top oif the line (arguably) audiophile caliber.

If you take Mercedes or any luxury brand which has a stated purpose , for example a car or an Audio system, must perform and better than the others or at least match their perfromance and add something to it. I believe that right now even the B&O remotes are surpassed by things from the lowly Logitech where just a button brings an activity to the consumer so why would they buy the $400 from B&O? I think that B&O is answering the new peoducts are high performance and of course worthy of the B&O design ...

The future will be better ... Once B&O understand that they have to bring more than beauty to the stage ...

Lesly

I tend to agree about the "value" proposition in many instances, particularly their video gear. That area of technology changes so rapidly that the idea of B&O being a long lasting item of high quality doesn't matter as much when the gear is going to be obsolete in two years or less when a new and bigger display technology arrives. But a lot of it also depends on one's idea of value.

I have the Beosound 9000/Beolab 8000 combo, and up until recently used an AV7000 to integrate it with my AV system. I'll say up front that the AV7000 was not my favorite product, I've since separated the Video and Audio systems and am using more mass market, but higher performance, AV surround gear. But, for music, I have also been completely satisfied, delighted is a better word, with my B&O setup for longer than any other combo has ever kept me enthralled, going on 16 years now.

I think one problem is that to many a speaker like the 8000 is not their thing, missing the bass that constitutes what most mass market people equate with good sound. But I think it's a much more serious and performance oriented speaker than you indicate in your post. To my ears, the 8000's have the smoothest midrange, great transparency, and almost holographic imaging, at least in my setup where I've taken pains to locate them well (they aren't up against the walls for example). To my ears, they are the best sounding speakers I've ever had in this room, which is somewhat problematic, the room that is. They offer depth and imaging that I've only heard exceeded by planar speakers, and they provide this while being a lot less room dependent than planars or other speakers.

Many "audiophiles" indicate that above all else they want a speaker that gets the mids right, I think the 8000's excell at this. They sound better to me than many higher priced, audiophile approved mini-monitors sitting on very expensive stands, using overpriced wire, etc. The problem with that in a way is that most audiophiles don't take B&O seriously, they think of them as image products for rich folks who don't care about sound, and are often unaware of the level of engineering B&O puts into things. Many I've spoken with are unaware of the anechoic chambers, listening room/listening panels, etc. B&O uses. Plus, they don't fit into the tweak/wire of the month club approach too common in "high end" audio.

So, while I think they provide value, the audiophiles, who are snobbish in their own way, don't take them seriously, and they are too expensive and don't provide enough bass for the, err, unwashed. ;-) The Beolab 5 definitely has bass, and compared to a lot of very high end speakers I've heard (Thiels, Wilson Audio, etc.) provide better sound for less money, but to the average joe they seem hideously pricey.

Another issue is that most people, at least here in the US, don't follow the design approach of Danish Modern or modern minimalist, and they tend to look out of place with early American decor.

So what they do going forward is a tough issue I think. I'd love to have them for video and well integrated, but even as much of a fan as I am I can't quite rationalize the price for the video gear, particularly as rapidly changing as that area is. I've considered the Beosound 5 as a replacement for my iTunes PC setup, but having bought a lot of music thru iTunes, the fact that the B5 won't playback Apple DRM AAC files is a show stopper. I blame Apple for that personally, as they seem to refuse to authorize anyone other than themselves to play back their DRM'd files. The work around would be to translate them to WAV files, but then I'd lose all the metadata and have to enter it all by hand, and as much music as I have from Apple that'd be a career not a weekend task. And I wanted to go with a B5, as sometimes it'll be a few weeks between music listening, and having to go thru half an hour of updates and scans on a PC prior to being able to really listen to tunes is a pain. I'm tempted to disconnect the PC from the internet but would lose the abilty to buy tunes and stream internet radio.

So, right now, for me there's no good integrated B&O way to replace my music server PC hooked via an external DAC to the Beosound, and controlled with a combo of the B&O remote and my iPad.

In a way, B&O and Apple are similar, both make stylish, high performance products that don't play well with others.

What way forward? Anything that sacrifices B&O's physical styling and quality (metal, glass as opposed to cheap plastics) will be a major step backwards. I think the Beosound 5 Encore is a step in the right direction, since it connects to a wide variety of different digital media types. It seems like a smart move for B&O, less expensive, makes use of what people probably have already to connect to, but still stylish. That seemed to me like a first sign of what B&O may be doing in the future, making their products easier to integrate with other systems would go a long way IMO.

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Karel Uyttendaele — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 04:15:56 GMT

Best "free" publicity in years!!! :-)

(AND good article!)

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

mediabobny — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 00:07:12 GMT

"Audiophiles lost out to audio files". Brilliant comment.

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

Evan — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:51:58 GMT

I think I was most interested in the part about the 50 speaker Audi Q7! Wonderful read and great article.

Its greatest attribute was the way it made me want more B&O!! No going back

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

misteUS — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 15:37:35 GMT

bsantini:

I take exception to the comment "There's an "impress the neighbors" quality to these products."

WTF? Not Mercedes, BMW or Audi, nooooooooo. Or any number of other "luxury" goods.

Part of the underlying promise/premise in all luxury goods is the message "I can afford it, and perhaps you can't"

I think the writer misses to main point that is right in front of his eyes... Consumers dont "understand" B&O, so they inwardly conclude they're not worthy, and try to trivialize their lack of understanding of the B&O ownership experience by pigeon-holing it as uber expensive/not worth it/all show and no go.

And the showrooms design, atmosphere and salesforce-aloofnesss only serve to reenforce these unfortunate misconceptions.

I think B&O would do well to stop designing their USA stores from Denmark, and hire a with-it and sensitive marketing/design/sales firm based here to do it.

Are you open to such an alternate idea, Mr. Mantoni?

Repsectfully,

Barry

B&O owner since 1975

I do believe that B&O has to increase the value proposition. I have been following B&O for a while and there was a point in time where their products were not not only beautiful to behold but also of the highest performance. Somewhere performance has taken the back seat. I would not call the Beolab 8000 or Beolab 6000 high performance products. For their price their only redeeming quality is their utter beauty .. Sound-wise these are not most people would call great sounding... The performance is minimal IMHO ( I own 8000 and 6000). Performance returned however with the Beo 5 speaker and the 9 follwoed suit as a matter of fact the new slew of Beolabspeakers are pretty good sounding witht he top oif the line (arguably) audiophile caliber.

If you take Mercedes or any luxury brand which has a stated purpose , for example a car or an Audio system, must perform and better than the others or at least match their perfromance and add something to it. I believe that right now even the B&O remotes are surpassed by things from the lowly Logitech where just a button brings an activity to the consumer so why would they buy the $400 from B&O? I think that B&O is answering the new peoducts are high performance and of course worthy of the B&O design ...

The future will be better ... Once B&O understand that they have to bring more than beauty to the stage ...

Lesly

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

bsantini — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:36:25 GMT

I take exception to the comment "There's an "impress the neighbors" quality to these products."

WTF? Not Mercedes, BMW or Audi, nooooooooo. Or any number of other "luxury" goods.

Part of the underlying promise/premise in all luxury goods is the message "I can afford it, and perhaps you can't"

I think the writer misses to main point that is right in front of his eyes... Consumers dont "understand" B&O, so they inwardly conclude they're not worthy, and try to trivialize their lack of understanding of the B&O ownership experience by pigeon-holing it as uber expensive/not worth it/all show and no go.

And the showrooms design, atmosphere and salesforce-aloofnesss only serve to reenforce these unfortunate misconceptions.

I think B&O would do well to stop designing their USA stores from Denmark, and hire a with-it and sensitive marketing/design/sales firm based here to do it.

Are you open to such an alternate idea, Mr. Mantoni?

Repsectfully,

Barry

B&O owner since 1975

Re: Feature article now in OCt WIRED magazine

EdouardG — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 07:56:31 GMT

Ok!

For your pleasure (and mine too, of course) I just bought the October '11 issue of Wired magazine (iPad version).

Here are the captures of the B&O interview, Enjoy!

(Captures from Wired Magazine Issue Oct '11 / Condé Nast)

Cheers,