General Forum

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:07:22 GMT

I bought a cheap Beocenter 9500 just to be able to try with another pre-amp, and with the 9500 at neutral settings i get more treble and mids than I got with the BM7000 set at +3. So I guess my trusty old BM7000 needs a rehaul then... (no, the 9500 is not a permanent solution, I prefer to have a 7000 in this room).

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

Hungedu — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:34:07 GMT

I still have my Penta III speakers, and they sound great. I boost the treble just a small bit to make up for the fact that they do lack crisp highs.

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:49:32 GMT

Hi again,

Some kind of follow-up: I was at a friend's place yesterday and noticed that his Pentas were quite a bit brighter than mine even though his treble setting was 0 and mine (on my bm7000) is +3. This made me curious, so when I got home I connected one of my pentas to my tv (with flat tone settings) and found that it sounded much brighter than the penta that was still connected to the audio system, so I guess my BM7000 isn't 100% ok.

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

Evan — Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:00:39 GMT

Very interesting to read Henrik.

The pentas are known to sound very relaxed. Im sure your audio master can compensate with a little treble boost.

Those capacitors should have some life left in them, but I'm not an authority on capacitors.

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 16:38:13 GMT

Hi,

I've experimented a bit more today, at present the Pentas are placed >60 cm from the wall, and the bass response is much flatter now - that mid-to-hi bass boost is almost gone, and the lower bass frequencies is better. Unfortunately, this placement is not an option in the long run, since it really messes up the whole room :P ..but yes, this confirms that is is a placement and room acoustics problem

My other main gripe with the Pentas is probably a more difficult problem: I'm not that 100 % satisified with the treble response. They sound a bit.. ...non-open? Especially, "f"-sounds sounds strange - they are a bit muted - but the higher "s"-sounds sound ok. The result is that many recordings (such as Grace Jones (or rather Trevor Horn...) fantastic "Slave to the rhythm", that I'm playing right now) just don't "open up". I knew that the Pentas are supposed to be a bit on the soft side when it comes to treble response, but I wasn't expecting it would be to this effect. Compared to the Pentas, my old M150s sound much more open and spatial. My Pentas are from 1999, so the crossovers should still be ok (...or?). i hope I'll learn to live with this, but so far I haven't really adjusted to this sound.

All in all, I'll keep experimenting with speaker placement but I'm worried about the treble characteristics. But still, also with the current non-optimal speaker placement I prefer them to my M150s, except when it comes to the treble response.

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

Evan — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 11:27:01 GMT

You're quite welcome Henrik!

I use a pair of BeoVox Conas to supplement my Lab 5000s. I have been experimenting with them for a while now and the above are my findings.

I really would recomend trying to increase the distance, it makes a huge difference. The further the better really - in terms of bass at least.

Just a thought - by spreading the speakers apart, you would also be moving them even further away from the listening position (directly). Although it may be marginal, every little bit counts!

Please report back after you experiment with your space!

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 00:40:06 GMT

Evan,

Thanks for your advice, but I have already experimented with the distance to the walls, and when I move the speakers closer to wall I get too much of the upper bass (maybe 150-250 Hz) and still not much happening below 100 Hz. What I've found so far is that I get a flatter frequency response when I move the speakers from the wall, but I can't place them more than 50-60 cm from the wall since the walls are so close :-)

Your second suggestion is probably a very good one! :-) Unfortunately it's not possible, the distance from back wall to front wall is only 3.5-4.0 meters so there's not much to do, unless I re-arrange the whole room (meaning I could place the speakers along another wall, with a possible max distance of 7 m from me) which I really don't want to do. I'll definitely try it for a limited time though. Thanks for your advice, it's much appreciated!

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

Evan — Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:18:28 GMT

Henrik,

If you are trying to coax more bass out of the Pentas, try putting them close to a wall, or a corner. This reduces non-forward radiation and increases reflected energy. The matter of a few inches can change the bass response notably.

Also try putting more distance between you and the speakers. Give those wavelengths room!

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:24:30 GMT

Hi everone,

I went for the Pentas, I had a long listening session at the seller's place (using a Beosystem 7000, just as in my own system) and found them nicer than I expected!

Anyway, at home I realised how sensitive the Pentas are when it comes the placement. When placed at the same positions as my M150s, I get no low bass (no sub bass and no punch) but too much upper bass (or lower mid). There is also something strange happening in the most upper midrange - we-re not talking straight frequency response here :). Ok, let's try to toe them in a bit... That improved the upper bass problem, but I still don't get any lower bass, for example: the sub-bassline that comes in at 5:19 in Seal - Crazy (full length) is not audible at all. I don't want exaggerated bass, I just want to be able to hear everything that's in the recording :) If there is no bass, I don't want to hear (over-eq:ed) bass, but if threre is a bassline I want to hear it.

I guess this is a placement and room acoustics problem, so I'll have to experiment some until I hopefully find a solution. Part of the problem, however, is that I don't want to completely re-arrange my livingroom.

Another problem - specially compared to my old M150s - is that the soundstage is a lot different as soon as you move out of the sweetspot, but I can live with that. At the same time, it makes me really curious of the ALT-equipped speakers! :-)

Since I know how good these speakers actually can sound, I'm really going to give them a chance and hopefully I'll find a solution without having to change the room completely. If I don't succeed in doing so, I'll take a look at the Beolab 9.

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

tournedos — Sat, 28 May 2011 03:51:41 GMT

bayerische:
How much would a Penta mk3 caps overhaul run me?

I did mine in 2008 and I think the parts cost with Intertechnik MKT caps was around 100 euros total - but the source I used then seems to have upped the prices by more than 50%

Those caps are good, basic foil types which will last forever and possibly even sound slightly better than electrolytics. It's possible to spend all you want in all kinds of audiophile caps, but I personally don't believe I'd ever hear the difference to these.

Original style bipolar electrolytics will be much cheaper, but the same job is then ahead in another 15 years

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

bayerische — Sat, 28 May 2011 03:07:19 GMT

Mika,

How much would a Penta mk3 caps overhaul run me?

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Fri, 27 May 2011 13:49:19 GMT

Peter :
interesting the comment about the S45-2s - I like their top end in comparison. Just shows that speakers are a very individual choice!

It could also be that my s45-2s need some TLC :-)

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

Peter — Fri, 27 May 2011 12:49:45 GMT

h1npw:

Peter :

MS150s have better more accurate bass but shriek at high volumes - part of this will be the amp struggling I imagine. The better speaker per se will be the MS150s and for all but the highest volumes, the 7000 is perfectly capable of driving them.

shriek at high volumes?? Not with the Quad (2 X 100W) they don't! A Beomaster 8000 (2 x 150W) would be even better!

CHeers

Nigel

I think it is the tweeter in this range of speakers - all the range have a sharp top end at volume in my experience - interesting the comment about the S45-2s - I like their top end in comparison. Just shows that speakers are a very individual choice!

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

henrik — Fri, 27 May 2011 12:25:29 GMT

Thank you all for your input! It was interesting to read vour opinions on Penta vs MS150! I would like to buy a pair of MS150s some day to complete my beolab/system 8000, but like Peter says I think the Pentas will be nicer in my livingroom. I'm not worried anymore regarding the treble response of the Penta, thanks to you lot :-) ...but this has also made me more curious of the MS150s, but despite Peter's experiences I think I would like to use an external power amp (instead of the one in my bm7000), based on my experience with my current M150s (they sound quite a lot better when used with a bm8000). This could be due to the acoustics of my livingroom. I'll go for the Pentas ...this time :-)

Evan: Yes, I've recently realised that the 5000 sounds much better than I thought. They're not really practical in this particular situation (due to my livingroom arangement), but I'll definitely check them out as they would be ideal speakers for my summerhouse.

Mika: ah, thanks! I'll check die_bogeners thread! Also, nice to hear that you like how the Pentas performs at low sound level! That's important to me.

Once again, thank you!

Re: What to buy for older system: Penta III or something else?

tournedos — Fri, 27 May 2011 12:00:28 GMT

henrik:
I've read that some people find the Penta treble a bit muddy. Could this be a problem?

It'll definitely move to that direction when the caps age. Elsewhere on the forum, one of Die_Bogener's excellent workshops goes over the Penta crossovers. He describes a couple of small mods that will make them sound brighter. I went with all original component values, and I wouldn't call them muddy - unless you compare to some other speakers that are purposedly bright. A matter of taste of course.

I'm constantly happily surprised at how good the Pentas sound at low volumes, where many other speakers would have you cranking up the volume or engaging loudness. I believe it is the four smallish bass drivers instead of one big.