General Forum

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

hackel — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:42:48 GMT

Don't forget one thing, if you buy a pair of Beolab 9, you'll have to wait for couple of month to listen real sound, especialy for bass (it's like a car).

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

Jon — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:29:06 GMT

Beoboiinoz:

I am under the impression those specs are anechoic - so you could realistically expect the Lab 9's to be closer to 20 - 25 hz in room at -10db and the BL2 perhaps 15 - 18hz again at -10db ref midrange, in room, because of room gain.

Well, I don't think "The Cube" is really an anechoic chamber, so I doubt B&O's measurements reflect what the actual anechoic response would be. As far as I understand it, their frequency response specification is based on some sort of derivation of the speaker's impulse response.

Room gain is a highly dependent factor. Room size and shape, wall/floor/ceiling material and thickness, openings to other rooms, speaker placement... Too many factors to make an accurate guess. Measuring is the only real way to positively know.

To hotknife:

If you have the money to "upgrade" to BL9's and get another sub to go with it, then do it! That's great for you!

If you're not going to be satisfied with the 8002's as mains, then don't teeter on the fence, as it were, any longer.

I'm just saying, if the BL2's integration is what's bothering you, then you need to take the time, or have someone else who can, to come and set it up for you. 99% of the time when people speak of "slow" bass, or "muddy" bass, it can be fixed with fine tuning. Remember: the BL2 uses what...an 8 or 9 inch driver, with two passive radiators? In maybe a half a cubic foot of volume? I bet that voice coil is enormous and LONG!! It's basically a huge inductor. More so than your standard woofer. High self-inductance = poor response in the upper bass. A small enclosure means lots of power will be needed to achieve deep bass, and circuitry will have to compensate for the poor transient response which would otherwise result from the high system Q. It's never going to be the highest fidelity sub ever. Betcha anything the BL2 shines if you lower the Xover frequency and/or the gain, probably both.

It's always fun to have the sub turned up at first, but after listening critically to it, it sounds like garbage. You're going to have the same exact problem with BL9's and Brand X sub if you don't take the time to set it up right. Only then you'll just have 180 degree dispersion of ~2Khz and up frequencies, with some funky polar response through the X-over region when you listen way over there, haha! ;)

It's your money - if you like what you hear, go for it!

Jon

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

hotknife — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:11:44 GMT

I do not want to switch "movie with subwoofer", "music without subwoofer". Therefore, I`m in doubt if the BL2 is able to support the BL9 in a general setup audio/video. I think, because the lower frequencies are passed to the BL2 from the DSS and the 10" bass driver of BL9 is unchallended and you only would benif from the ALT.

But just my thoughts, I`m far away from an expert to judge.

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

DrDimitris — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:03:59 GMT

hotknife:

Have a nice weekend.

You also my friend

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

hotknife — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 05:39:26 GMT

Rookie,

it´s your fault, because you did not mention when you delivered the BV8-40

O.k. if I`m not happy without the subwoofer, I`ll go for a Velodyne or Sunfire up to 2700 W. With the combination I should be able to destroy the whole block of flats

DrDimitris,

of cause I will listen to the BL9 with and without my BL2. If there is big improvement with BL2 (everybody tells me "N o" because the pair of BL2 in combination are much stronger, faster than a single BL2), I will keep it. Otherwise I will let the BL2 with the BL8002 go.

Have a nice weekend.

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

DrDimitris — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 05:26:10 GMT

Beoboiinoz:

I'd also mention that in another thread here, David Moulton uses the BL2 with BL3's and feels the combination is fine for music. I get the feeling that one or two people have felt the BL2 to be 'slow' in the bass, and that then this has translated to objective 'fact' in the forum as regards the BL2, when in fact, it could be simply due to poor placement or other reasons such as poor setup (how many members use an SPL level meter when setting up/balancing your AV system?) such that a less than optimal result gets touted as fact on the forum.

I second that. Dave Moulton states that he does not find BL2 slow for music at all. I think he is the most qualified to comment on this issue.

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

Rookie — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 05:00:26 GMT

Hi,

you won't miss a subwoofer for music ... for TV/Movies things look different. But i would not spend large amounts on a sub just for occasional TV/Movie-Sessions. Try to get a used Detoma sub ... for 300€ they can be found sometimes ... very good value for the money. If it doesn's suit you ... pass it on for the same money to somebody else ... no big risk.

As to your room/facility ... you might have a critical point with your floor tiles and the very sharp sound of the BL9 ... i hope for good, that it won't be an issue.

Best luck for the testing ... BL9 is an excellent speaker ... as i told you before you bought BL8002 ;-)

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

hotknife — Fri, 18 Feb 2011 04:15:26 GMT

Guys,

thank you very much for your time and your answers.

I`d like to change the currend setup BL8002/BL2 because the BL2 does not sound very good with music. I know, some guys keep smiling at the moment, thinking "hotknife you bubblehead, haven`t I told you before, the BL2 is not the ultimate one to go with music, try the PV1 from B&W instead".
Yap, you were right.

Because I have plugged the BL2 into the DSS modul of the BV8-40, I`m able to play with the adjustments incl. the 2 switches of the BL2. Incl. the new setup of the BL2 between both BL8002 speakers, the BL2 delivers a good sound (very, very good for movie, good for music). I think, if you have plugged both speakers into the BL2 instead of the DSS of the BV, you have not the options from the DSS of the Beovision and would receive a very deeply, dull sound. And yes, the BL2 is sometimes slow with music. The main focus of the BL2 is video. If you use it only with video, it is a perfect subwoofer. If you go only for music, do not even think of a BL2. Als already mentioned, we are not able to change the setup without subwoofer only for music, with subwoofer only for video. It do not understand why it is such a problem for B&O to change the software of the BV. It would solve the problem.

To make a short story long.
I started with a BV8-40 last autumn, replacing my BV8-32. After the BV8-40 arrived, I noticed the BV8-40 delivered a very very poor sound in comparision to the BV8-32. The same week I sold my BS3000 with BL2500 (I loved the combination over 10 years, it was my first B&O stuff), because the power amplier had to be replaced. So I liked the idea to use speakers both for the BV and for the BS by using the masterlink.

So I bought the new BL8002 togeher with the BS4 end of last year. Right from the beginning I was not satisfied with the bass of the BL8002. In comparision my old BL2500 deliveryed a better bass in the past, maybe they were placed straigth to the wall. After one or two weeks of decision-making procedure I went for the BL2 (again, yes I`d better bought the PV1, you are right).

Do not understand me wrong. I`m plaesed with the currend BL8002/BL2, but you know "better is the enemy of good". I listened to a pair of BL9 and was of cause exited. So I asked my local dealer for a demo at home. He told me to put a brand new pair of BL9 into my living room for 3 days beginning next Friday (he has to order them). If I`d like the sound, he will take the BL8002/BL2 from end of last year and I have to pay the difference.

If you ask yourself why I did not start with the BL9 first? Because I thought the BL8002 would meet my demand from the start. And if some guys are asking why I do not go a step further and go for the BL5 instead? Because my living room is only 22 m2 and I have to throw away my furniture because of the volume of the BL5.

That´s the whole story. So the final question would be BL9 without/with subwoofer vs BL8002/BL2. I do not want to change the speakers within the next years, so I asked for the additional subwoofer with the pair of BL9.

Take care.

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

John — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:14:06 GMT

Jon:

Well, seems like you're dead set on the Lab 9's.

B&O's low frequency specs for the 9's are -10dB at 30Hz and -10dB at 23Hz for the BL2. So, the BL2 is giving appreciably lower bass, although placement in your room can easily tip the scales one way or another.

Did you ever play with the BL2 integration/setup?

Or is this more just a case of you want to upgrade your mains and the sub has to go too?

I know not everyone here is technically inclined, but you could always build a "Linkwitz Transform" circuit and plug it in between your speakers (since they are active), and your pre-amp (being whatever piece of B&O kit you have without an internal power amplifier). This is basically what B&O does with their speakers anyway, to compensate for the small cabinet volume. You can extend the response to whatever you wish (within certain practical limits), if you're willing to give up some SPL headroom. Kind of like their ABL circuit - when the volume goes down, the extra power is used for the low end bass lift. It's fixed however, and isn't variable like ABL.

Jon

I am under the impression those specs are anechoic - so you could realistically expect the Lab 9's to be closer to 20 - 25 hz in room at -10db and the BL2 perhaps 15 - 18hz again at -10db ref midrange, in room, because of room gain.

Those figures are pretty good, and to my mind the BL2 is no slouch and to do better re frequency extension + high power SPL levels AND with low distortion means pretty serious subwoofery - start thinking Velodyne DD18 or JL Audio Fathom 213's for example. These will comfortably shake your house, but of course they don't have the style and integration of a B&O product.

The other thing to bear in mind is that some people just like killer bass for the sake of it - nothing wrong with that IMHO - but it has little to do with the most accurate reproduction of the musical event, which is where B&O are most closely aligned as regards their philosophy of sound engineering.

I'd also mention that in another thread here, David Moulton uses the BL2 with BL3's and feels the combination is fine for music. I get the feeling that one or two people have felt the BL2 to be 'slow' in the bass, and that then this has translated to objective 'fact' in the forum as regards the BL2, when in fact, it could be simply due to poor placement or other reasons such as poor setup (how many members use an SPL level meter when setting up/balancing your AV system?) such that a less than optimal result gets touted as fact on the forum.

I can't personally comment, as I don't own B&O AV kit, but I do have over 40 years of experience in this hobby and would think David Moulton knows more than a thing or two about good sound and how to get it.

Lastly, as I'm not familiar with the BV 8-40 from an ownership POV, does it not have a dedicated LFE output solely for a sub? Another possible workaround then would be to use a third party AV processor bypassing the 8-40's AV processing module completely which would also allow you to gain benefit from Bluray codecs such as Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio, neither of which the BV 8-40s processing supports.

You could then indulge in a super sub such as the JL Audio Fathoms, and balance the whole system up with an SPL meter to your hearts content.

However, then you loose the looks and integration of B&O unfortunately, which is what attracts many to the brand in the first place - including me - I've done all the high end audio stuff and been spat out at the other end, older, wiser and poorer. AV, like life is all about compromises - we just have to choose which ones we want to live with.

Hope this helps and best of luck with it

John...

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

Jon — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:41:20 GMT

Well, seems like you're dead set on the Lab 9's.

B&O's low frequency specs for the 9's are -10dB at 30Hz and -10dB at 23Hz for the BL2. So, the BL2 is giving appreciably lower bass, although placement in your room can easily tip the scales one way or another.

Did you ever play with the BL2 integration/setup?

Or is this more just a case of you want to upgrade your mains and the sub has to go too?

I know not everyone here is technically inclined, but you could always build a "Linkwitz Transform" circuit and plug it in between your speakers (since they are active), and your pre-amp (being whatever piece of B&O kit you have without an internal power amplifier). This is basically what B&O does with their speakers anyway, to compensate for the small cabinet volume. You can extend the response to whatever you wish (within certain practical limits), if you're willing to give up some SPL headroom. Kind of like their ABL circuit - when the volume goes down, the extra power is used for the low end bass lift. It's fixed however, and isn't variable like ABL.

Jon

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

beolion — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:50:33 GMT

I have BL9 and a BL2, we mostly use it for movies. We had the BL2 before we got the BL9's, and we just love the rumble thta BL2 gives in the movies. Our main use is TV and movies, not music.

However, I would have loved that you could customise the speaker setup even more in our TV (BV7), i.e. when using speaker 1 or 3 or 5, then the BL2 is active, and when using speaker 2 or 4 then the BL2 was inactive. If I listen to music, I use Speaker 2, and adjust the bass level in BL2, but this is not user friendly.

Good luck.

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

RayTheWash — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:32:27 GMT

I concur with the above posts, i tried a Beolab 11 with my BL9s and it made them sound terrible! They do sound fine on their own

Ray

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

BeoFab — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:35:29 GMT

Hi hotknife,

I hope you do not get offended but I think you are in the need of some tough love:

Following this and other thread of yours I can tell you that you are probably obsessed with the subwoofer. Just let it go and enjoy what you have. And honestly if you decided to go for the BL 9s take your time, let your ear get used to them and then decide

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

moxxey — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:32:01 GMT

I used to have my BL2 connected to the BL9s. I thought the sound was worse as some of the bass was moved to the BL2. You don't need a subwoofer with the BL9s, unless you have no neighbours and like your movies very loud.

Re: BL9 plus subwoofer ideal combination wanted

hotknife — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:29:32 GMT

Guys,

thanks for your answers. O.k., I promise I`ll try to listen at least a couple of days without any subwoofer (still have the BL2, but would trade it for the BL9).