General Forum

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Electrified — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:57:01 GMT

No, I haven't joined the Fountain Pen Network (yet), but perhaps I should reconsider, even if I think most there is every bit as geeky about fountain pens as I am when it comes to audio (production and reproduction). It can quickly become very, very nerdy.

I will see if I can get ahold of some Pilot Iroshizuki ink just for fun, because you're right: Colours is half the fun. Right now I have a dark green in my L2K, because I think it goes well together with this time of year (a little sad, very dark, and a bit melancholic, yet it is eternal green, like the firs).

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Doctor — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:44:13 GMT

I have a Lamy 2000 too - a design classic and almost indestructible! Never sure what my favourite user pen is - possible an Aurora Optima - but I change pens frequently. I am using Pilot Iroshizuku inks as the colours are simply gorgeous. I do use Nodlers as well as Diamine and all sorts of others! Changing colours is half the fun. Have you joined the Fountain Pen Network? Another excellent forum.

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Electrified — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:27:56 GMT

Doctor:

Electrified:

Actually, I have some very nice fountain pens and nice paper to write on,

A man after my own heart! I collect fountain pens (take up less space than my old B&O collection, now dispersed!) and indeed received a wonderful Conway Stewart 288 from a very good friend this Christmas.

Quite an interesting analogy here. The old Conway Stewart pens were made entirely in the UK but the company went broke in the 1970s. The brand was resurrected in the 90s and is now a purveyor of very high end fountain pens, the cheapest selling for about £300, a non inconsiderable amount for what is, at the end of the day, a plastic pen. The analogy comes because these days, the nib and feed are sourced from Germany. (Mildly ironic given that one of the mainstays of the company is a line called the Churchill). There is a fair amount of debate about whether the new Conway Stewart can really be bracketed with the old. I actually have a number of both types, and find them very different. The same goes for another make - Onoto, which are my very favourite. They too have just been brought back, but in this case have lost the unique selling feature of a complex filling system. Again they are high end pens with German nibs trading under a British name. I have many vintage Onotos, and one new type.

I never knew that. Thanks.

I don't consider myself a fountain pen afficionado, but I do like "good stuff". When I first discovered fountain pens, I noticed how nice it was to write with (with the right tip) for a lefty like me. Since then I have almost exclusively used fountain pens for notetaking and what not. My everyday favourite - especially if I'm out doing an interview or the like (journalism, not job interviews), is my Lamy 2000. It's not really a "bragging piece" in all its understatedness, but it's great to write with with it's platinum nib, and it doesn't scream "steal me", or "I have loads of money". Most people think it's a ballpoint pen.

I use "permanent" ink from Noodler's Ink most of the time. It smells less and dries pretty fast (it dryes by chemically interacting with the cellulose in the paper).

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Dude1 — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 04:16:28 GMT

lol.

I really like your footer - 'No one ever regretted buying quality'...

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Doctor — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 03:14:27 GMT

Electrified:

Actually, I have some very nice fountain pens and nice paper to write on,

A man after my own heart! I collect fountain pens (take up less space than my old B&O collection, now dispersed!) and indeed received a wonderful Conway Stewart 288 from a very good friend this Christmas.

Quite an interesting analogy here. The old Conway Stewart pens were made entirely in the UK but the company went broke in the 1970s. The brand was resurrected in the 90s and is now a purveyor of very high end fountain pens, the cheapest selling for about £300, a non inconsiderable amount for what is, at the end of the day, a plastic pen. The analogy comes because these days, the nib and feed are sourced from Germany. (Mildly ironic given that one of the mainstays of the company is a line called the Churchill). There is a fair amount of debate about whether the new Conway Stewart can really be bracketed with the old. I actually have a number of both types, and find them very different. The same goes for another make - Onoto, which are my very favourite. They too have just been brought back, but in this case have lost the unique selling feature of a complex filling system. Again they are high end pens with German nibs trading under a British name. I have many vintage Onotos, and one new type.

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

John — Wed, 29 Dec 2010 01:04:12 GMT

Dude1:

The day B&O Denmark simply becomes a Idea outpost - and an expensive one at that is the day a great many people walk straight past 'the old shop' and carry on to cheaper alternatives.

A great many people, including many of my friends buy B&O not to be brand snobs, but who appreciate a little of the 'old world engineering' that has gone by-the-by over the past decade. I have had a lively debate with many of my friends about the reasons for their purchase of B&O and many have simply admired a small company producing easily used products, with fantastic qualities including great design that can stand the test of time. Many of my friends can't be bothered with updating an LCD every couple of years because something else looks a little better and prefer to stick with the same product for many years at a time.

I think the notion of having a stand-alone Danish made brand is not 'idealistic'. For many years Bang & Olufsen was cutting edge. It's products were worth paying extra for and many people did. The Avant for example was just such a product. The greatest issue for Bang & Olufsen presently is attracting people to purchase the products - not trying to have them manufactured cheaply by 'god only knows who' in China. B&O used to do this by having products (not a couple of products, as the case now appears to be) that people would walk over hot coals to get. Now the products lack the differentiation from many Asian peers have. Being manufactured in DK is another differentiating factor, not just 'Oh yeah, take a look at my expensive B&O product - it was conceived in DK you know...'

Frankly, I'm suprised at the lack of care that people have about the product and its brand heritage. It sounds like instead of people wanting the brand to be the little innovative and quality Danish brand, that they prefer something with a badge and heck, as long as it looks ok. This is the very reason pirated goods the world over thrive. People want the looks without having to work for the product. If this is the case, luxury brands are all destined to the grave - no one will aspire to work for the craftmanship and quality if something can be knocked up cheap somewhere but it looks the part!

Certainly the day I wander into a B&O store and the salesperson tells me 'Oh we are now a subsidiary of Samsung' or 'all products are now made in our factory in Taiwan' is the day I walk to Currys and buy something, because at least I know that I no longer give a stuff wherever or whatever I buy beacuse I know its all cheap for a reason.

Firstly my apologies if you felt by my previous post that I was somehow denigrating B&O to the value of "pirated goods".

"I have had a lively debate with many of my friends about the reasons for their purchase of B&O and many have simply admired a small company producing easily used products, with fantastic qualities including great design that can stand the test of time. Many of my friends can't be bothered with updating an LCD every couple of years because something else looks a little better and prefer to stick with the same product for many years at a time."

I'd agree wholeheartedly; it's one of the reasons I really like B&O and am a fan.

"Frankly, I'm suprised at the lack of care that people have about the product and its brand heritage. It sounds like instead of people wanting the brand to be the little innovative and quality Danish brand, that they prefer something with a badge and heck, as long as it looks ok. This is the very reason pirated goods the world over thrive. People want the looks without having to work for the product. If this is the case, luxury brands are all destined to the grave - no one will aspire to work for the craftmanship and quality if something can be knocked up cheap somewhere but it looks the part!"

It is certainly not my intention to convey this point of view as you express or perceive it.

Lets take a look at what a brand is.

It is a set of perceived and marketable qualities such as to differentiate one product from another in the marketplace.

For B&O this means for example a combination of state of the art/cutting edge technology, design aesthetics that stand alone, innovation, exquisite materials and finish/manufacture. These brand 'qualities' are marketed as being the provenance of B&O more than any other brand in the consumer AV marketplace, and hence separates B&O from other competing saleable goods in that market place.

Marketing is very important in establishing a brand image, and additionally the espoused values need to be echoed in the product itself, or else there is going to be an uncomfortable dichotomy between what is promised, and what is actually delivered. Hence perhaps the discomfort expressed here by some who yearn for the exclusivity seemingly conveyed by 'Hand Made In Denmark' when the oft uncomfortable truth is that it is robotised mass production in a state of the art factory.

I woud contend that the brand 'values' or perceived and marketed image of the product called B&O, is established in the R&D, think tanks, design and engineering processes undertaken in Denmark. Unlike many high end audiophile components of which I have had experience, generally speaking the brand values as marketed by B&O, the 'promise' if you will, is held up in practice when you actually buy the goods and experience/live with them.

Let us now look at the actual Manufacturing as against marketing of brand values and perceived 'image'.

If you are going to achieve any consistency of product quality these days, then the actual manufacturing is going to be achieved by virtue of CAD/CAM design, and CNC robotised machines, and largely those state or the art facilities exist in countries such as China, Japan, and Taiwan. This is an engineering/production facility fact of life.

The days when a cottage industry advertises 'made by hand' usually means a variable and uncertain quality indeed to the end buyer, and that the harsh reality is that the cottage industry simply doesn't have the funding for state of the art faciltiies, and relies upon the spin of 'craftsmanship' to cover the reality of inferior goods to that produced by modern mass produced CNC methods.

Thus, if we put the superior design, aesthetics, engineering, and all the other brand values we so admire from B&O, together with state of the art manufacturing from the best available state of the art manufacturing methods which are oft in countries such as the ones under contentious discussion here, then B&O can only benefit from bringing stunning products to market, at prices that once upon a time used to be affordable to many of the loyal brand adherents - some of whom feel that they have been priced out of their favourite brand.

If B&O can increase it's competitiveness by adopting state of the art outsourced manufacturing, then they have not only a real chance of prospering, but bringing an even greater depth of innovation and all the brand values that we love about B&O back to the market place - not only for the loyalists amongst us, but for the next generation of B&O buyer as well.

Best Regards

John...

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Electrified — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:42:14 GMT

Actually, I have some very nice fountain pens and nice paper to write on, and I think my Thinkpads are made in Taiwan. My wifi router from Apple would fry, my gas stove and fridge would work, and most of my furniture is Danish or Swedish design (and manufacture). I don't own clothes from China, so I guess I could count my blessings in that imaginary scenario. Hell, my row boat is made in the US, perhaps that one would multiple or turn into a cedar version in the same ligtning strike?

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

iPoditiv — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:26:44 GMT

Just a little wrap of this discussion:

Imagine, lightning strikes and makes vanish everything in your house, which is made in China ...

Look at each other's red ears, at the destruction in your home, think about posting in this forum, search for a typewriter to express your surprise ...

iPoditiv, who is disappointed of the chinese solution to the problems of costs and production capacities for a product which was not known to be sold whether in hundreds, thousands or millions, hoping for acceptable working conditions in China ...

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Electrified — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:32:58 GMT

Yup, I am crossing my fingers that this will be "it" for me. I think there's a pretty good chance this time around. Perhaps not at first, butit seems that most of the rest I want is firmware related, so even if it doesn't cross my TTB at first, it might come at later date.

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Puncher — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:28:12 GMT

Electrified:

Opman:

Electrified:
Seriously, if everyone had been positive about the BS5, do you really think B&O would have implemented so many of things (in the soon-to-come Encore) it was criticized for lacking?

I think that this statement is not entirely true. The BeoSound5 Encore has been on the drawing board for a while. Perhaps B&O could be criticised for the length of time it has been in development, but I don't see it's eminent launch as just being down to comments posted on BeoWorld

No, of course it's not solely down to comments on Beoworld. But surely it's down to the criticism it has received - one of the places being here.

Opman:
The Encore is the first new product to support Network Link. The next generation of multi room networking that will replace Masterlink.

Yup, and that particular feature must have been the longest in the works (and it's about time).

But even down to the (to me obvious) inclusion of a headphone jack, NAS, and whatnot, and the implementation of a two-way remote to compete with products like a lowly iPod Touch (or a Logitech Controller), it seems that almost all the criticism have been heard. I just hope the implementation works as well as the competition.

Ultimately it doesn't matter - they have recognised the same limitations and issues that have been pointed out in these pages for a good while and have addressed them. That's all anyone ever wanted. I'm genuinely looking forward to the Encore and interested in all the other new product packed with the new features.............bring it on!

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Electrified — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:10:09 GMT

Opman:

Electrified:
Seriously, if everyone had been positive about the BS5, do you really think B&O would have implemented so many of things (in the soon-to-come Encore) it was criticized for lacking?

I think that this statement is not entirely true. The BeoSound5 Encore has been on the drawing board for a while. Perhaps B&O could be criticised for the length of time it has been in development, but I don't see it's eminent launch as just being down to comments posted on BeoWorld

No, of course it's not solely down to comments on Beoworld. But surely it's down to the criticism it has received - one of the places being here.

Opman:
The Encore is the first new product to support Network Link. The next generation of multi room networking that will replace Masterlink.

Yup, and that particular feature must have been the longest in the works (and it's about time).

But even down to the (to me obvious) inclusion of a headphone jack, NAS, and whatnot, and the implementation of a two-way remote to compete with products like a lowly iPod Touch (or a Logitech Controller), it seems that almost all the criticism have been heard. I just hope the implementation works as well as the competition.

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Opman — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:03:16 GMT

Electrified:
Seriously, if everyone had been positive about the BS5, do you really think B&O would have implemented so many of things (in the soon-to-come Encore) it was criticized for lacking?

I think that this statement is not entirely true. The BeoSound5 Encore has been on the drawing board for a while. Perhaps B&O could be criticised for the length of time it has been in development, but I don't see it's eminent launch as just being down to comments posted on BeoWorld. The Encore is the first new product to support Network Link. The next generation of multi room networking that will replace Masterlink.

Opman

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

joeyboygolf — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:00:29 GMT

j0hnbarker:

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

I object to this type of "banter" which should be reserved for the student bar.

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

Electrified — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:56:57 GMT

j0hnbarker:

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

My post wasn't written with you in mind (though it clearly should have been), but I can't think of many times you have popped up in discussions here other than to dissect postings and initiate or propagate arguments.

Oh, great, yet another person trying to claim the high ground, yet utterly fails to refrain from doing the very thing he's criticizing.

Anyway, let's see:

j0hnbarker:

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

My post wasn't written with you in mind (though it clearly should have been), but I can't think of many times you have popped up in discussions here other than to dissect postings and initiate or propagate arguments.

"Dissecting" an argument is a very common way to take one premise at the time when countering it. You see, there are so many invalid arguments, based on false premises, logical fallacies and what not, that it's actually the best way to do things. You see, otherwise people can roll up and wrap anything into an argument without one having the possibility to counter it at the core. If you don't like the way I do things, well, tough luck.

j0hnbarker:
Some journalist you must be, what with your ability to see both sides of an argument.

As above. And I'll let you know I'm a pretty good journalist, because I know where and when to be critical, I know when an argument fails, and I can usually spot them from miles away. That very property also makes me a very good man to have in one's corner when PR and damage control is to be rolled out.

Re: Where is BeoSound8 made?

j0hnbarker — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:44:08 GMT

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

My post wasn't written with you in mind (though it clearly should have been), but I can't think of many times you have popped up in discussions here other than to dissect postings and initiate or propagate arguments. Some journalist you must be, what with your ability to see both sides of an argument.