General Forum

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

Puncher — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 04:07:06 GMT

soundproof:

Have to think of the concert pianist who got so insulted by how she was treated in a B&O store that I had to spend some time telling her that her experience was not typical. She was about to do B&O a significant favor, but the run-in with a prejudiced dealer definitely cooled her enthusiasm.

To me, B&O has always been about getting the best possible A/V experience, from the best available A/V sources, in as convenient a way as possible. "I want (press button) here, right now. Thank you, bliss."

That's the B&O I got to know and got used to, and which kept doing precisely that, up until a few years ago. B&O has been slow to reconnect to the digital opportunities. Has nothing to do with Apple, there are lots of companies in a/v exploiting the vacuum. The fact that you keep reading about Apple here is due to the fact that they are delivering the "in as convenient a way as possible" part, and then it's up to you to decide which sources you wish to use.

B&O takes excellent features and components, they add a B&O twist and form. All I want is to be able to be in one of my rooms and press a button and get what I used to get through being a long term and loyal B&O customer. I don't care what components are inside the units B&O choose, as long as they deliver an experience that rivals and preferably surpasses what is otherwise available. At the press of a button.
They're not there today, but could have been - easily. They've been too stubborn and too scared of opening the Masterlink fence.

Ideally, I shouldn't have to be aware of the technology. Plug and play is what I want. No fuss, maximum convenience. But it has to be State of the Art. Just the way B&O used to be.

As an illustration, if they'd begun with what the Encore promises to do, when the BS5 was launched, I'd own one now - instead of feeling forced to create a work-around.

I agree entirely. If the BS5 had been portable (re my earlier "2009 MCP" comments) and the music library location or server been selectable by the user (with more content format choice) it would have been an excellent B&O product. Hopefully the Encore will address these issues and become the "essential" B&O audio master.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

soundproof — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:56:36 GMT

Have to think of the concert pianist who got so insulted by how she was treated in a B&O store that I had to spend some time telling her that her experience was not typical. She was about to do B&O a significant favor, but the run-in with a prejudiced dealer definitely cooled her enthusiasm.

To me, B&O has always been about getting the best possible A/V experience, from the best available A/V sources, in as convenient a way as possible. "I want (press button) here, right now. Thank you, bliss."

That's the B&O I got to know and got used to, and which kept doing precisely that, up until a few years ago. B&O has been slow to reconnect to the digital opportunities. Has nothing to do with Apple, there are lots of companies in a/v exploiting the vacuum. The fact that you keep reading about Apple here is due to the fact that they are delivering the "in as convenient a way as possible" part, and then it's up to you to decide which sources you wish to use.

B&O takes excellent features and components, they add a B&O twist and form. All I want is to be able to be in one of my rooms and press a button and get what I used to get through being a long term and loyal B&O customer. I don't care what components are inside the units B&O choose, as long as they deliver an experience that rivals and preferably surpasses what is otherwise available. At the press of a button.
They're not there today, but could have been - easily. They've been too stubborn and too scared of opening the Masterlink fence.

Ideally, I shouldn't have to be aware of the technology. Plug and play is what I want. No fuss, maximum convenience. But it has to be State of the Art. Just the way B&O used to be.

As an illustration, if they'd begun with what the Encore promises to do, when the BS5 was launched, I'd own one now - instead of feeling forced to create a work-around.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

Michael — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:10:05 GMT

Razlaw:
I would agree. As I said recently elsewhere in this forum, can someone please direct me to the forum for people who actually like B and O.

We pay to use this forum so we should be able to discuss a wide range of products and how we feel they integrate with our digital lives. People don't just buy one brand, they buy the best of all brands they actually like whether B&O, Apple, or Windows or whatever.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

BeoFab — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:14:35 GMT

TripEnglish:

In case you haven't paid attention, we have, in the past year alone,

1. Phased out MasterLink in favor of a Cat7/Wireless standard called NetLink.

2. Designed and brought a TV to market in less than 18 months and responded to market demand with additional sizes in a matter of months.

3. Phased out our touch remote in favor of an upgraded design that includes an HD Retina Display

4. Introduced an iPhone app to control an entire home AV system and attached automation

5. Produced the best sounding iPod dock ever made

6. Introduced a video matrix solution to allow all TVs to share and control a single set of sources

7. Introduced an all digital audio master

Next year we'll add to the world of iPod accessories, iPod control, WiFi remote control, media management, and more.

And how about a digital music player with CD, wireless, air conditioning, ashtray, 10 airbags, gps, IPod compatible and with a Rolex watch!!!

Sorry I couldn't resist

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

TripEnglish — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:27:49 GMT

Rookie:

"At the end of the day, the forum is held hostage by a vocal minority who judge anything but a free TV with an Apple logo as one more nail in B&O's coffin"

Sorry, but this is completely without substance to me. You don't want to lead a discussion based on facts and features. Instead you are constantly repeating the description of a static customer scenario. Don't you think it is highly unlikely, that things will stay the same. History has a quite obvious answer to that.

Things are changing day to day. I've watched it happen for many years.

Rookie:

Do you really think, that the generation of "digital natives", who have a quite educated understanding of the technology they are using every day, will be your customers in a few years, if the products and the philosophy behind that stay the same ? In fact you won't have the choice ... you have to please the people you are constantly nagging on nowadays ... 'cause they make the money needed to be spent on B&O products.

The philosophy should stay the same: Make technology pleasurable & accessible. Maintain high performance. Focus on design. Etc. Straying from sound core philosophies is what strands companies in the wilderness. We've been there before. So has Apple. So have others. Some made it back. Some didn't. We did.

The products haven't stayed the same. In the past year we've released an all digital music master and an iPod dock. When the BeoSound 5 was released BeoWorlders whined that it didn't have a CD slot. Looks like B&O was too oriented to the future. In the coming year we'll introduce a second all digital music master at a price point that will make it our least expensive audio system.

Rookie:

You can experience a similar development/challenge in the global premium automotive market. Innovation is the key to survive, not stagnation.

Right. Ok. I don't recall anyone advocating stagnation, but it feels good to say things like this.

Rookie:

Of course i understand why you might like your type of customer ... it might be a nice service fee business ... but it might also be, that educated customers WANT to understand, what your product is capable of ... he might demand clear structures and clean technical designs, so that he can fix things himself, because he simply doesn't want to wait for somebody to come ... not talking about the challenge to find a qualified service partner.

Not the case. Sorry. A modern Mercedes doesn't even have a dipstick to check your oil. This is not consistent with the points you're making above about technological stagnation. It is absolutely beyond the understanding or interest of all average consumers to start cracking open computers and stereos to fiddle with things. It's not 1950 anymore.

Rookie:

I cannot see why somebody who is discussing about a new level of product quality, is less of a B&O enthusiast. I don't think so. They are only trying to discuss quite essential demands ... and i think they care a lot about the B&O brand. Is that so hard to understand? Or is it more of a generation conflict e.g a question of age?

Discussing different levels of quality doesn't preclude you from being a B&O enthusiast. Again, no one has said it does. See red herring. What precludes you from being a B&O enthusiast is a complete and total disdain for B&O. Just as finding cooked broccoli precludes one from being a cooked broccoli enthusiast. When the Olive was brought up as a potential alternative it was treated, at least by me, as a serious competitor. I find a few things about it wonderful, most of all that it supports the idea of "high end digital music" which was (and still is in many circles) an oxymoron. I don't think I'd buy one, but I haven't taken the time to join the Olive forum and share my thoughts on exactly what's a "nail in their coffin" and what's "a missed opportunity." I'll also remind you that while anyone can tell that Puncher has probably resigned his post in the Trip English fan club I conceded my agreement on several of his issues with the BeoSound 5. I only added some color commentary as to why most of them have proved to be less important the longer I use it.

Rookie:

As some people linked the discussion with the Porsche story ... there you can find a very good example of how threatened a company was by sticking to the past and denying the development of the rest of the world ... if they hadn't changed from aircooled models to watercooled technology with features never seen in Porsches before ... and produced in a totally different way ... they would have been dead by 1997. Instead they adapted their products to the markets without loosing too much of the Porsche DNA. The rest should be known.

I think you missed the point of that story. Porsche diluted its heritage as a performance car company by building SUVs, bargain baby-porsches, and now giant sedans against the blood-curtling howls of "enthusiasts." Let's call them Porscheworlders.

In case you haven't paid attention, we have, in the past year alone,

1. Phased out MasterLink in favor of a Cat7/Wireless standard called NetLink.

2. Designed and brought a TV to market in less than 18 months and responded to market demand with additional sizes in a matter of months.

3. Phased out our touch remote in favor of an upgraded design that includes an HD Retina Display

4. Introduced an iPhone app to control an entire home AV system and attached automation

5. Produced the best sounding iPod dock ever made

6. Introduced a video matrix solution to allow all TVs to share and control a single set of sources

7. Introduced an all digital audio master

Next year we'll add to the world of iPod accessories, iPod control, WiFi remote control, media management, and more.

Apparently B&O is moving so fast you're not able to keep up.

Rookie:

Please stop to reduce this discussion to an Apple/B&O bashing. That is not the point.

Cheers

Tim

Look Tim (and everyone else who returned those "I Love Trip English" jackets I mailed out), I'm not saying that there should be a walled garden where only empty praise is heaped on a naked emperor. But when the criticisms are too disconnected from the reality of what we do, I point it out. When they're relevant I chime in. When they're spot on, I agree. Aside from Soundproof (who wrapped a trout in his TE jacket before returning it), I just don't see much worthwhile contribution. At least not enough to let so much baloney slide.

Peace & Love

-Trip Percival Wulfric Brian English

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

Stan — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:18:11 GMT

mawheele:

The answer I provided discussed the underpinning technology of one product versus another. On a pure technology (software+hardware) front, there is absolutely no contest. If ever you want proof, just search for pictures of the insides of a BS5 and BM5. Then do a search for pictures of the screen from actual customers. Then, when you see multiple shots of what looks like a 2001 dated operating system (that should be hidden by a skinned media player), go ahead and take your decision.

I don't understand this comment. I've owned my BS5 for about a year and a half and have never seen a 2001 dated operating system show up on my screen... well, I have, but only because I asked it to show up...

If a product does what you want it to do, and comes from a company that has a long history of "built to last" products, then why should one care about what is happening inside the box? I guess it doesn't hurt to know, but, IMHO, a 2001 dated OS is not necessarily the bad thing you make it out to be... OSX's roots can be traced to at least the 1990s (if not the 1970s via Unix) which is one of the things I like about it... I don't have to worry about what software will run on it, as it's only purpose is to run the B&O software that came with it... and, most importantly, you never see it.

BTW: I'm not a technological lightweight. I installed and configured my BS5 myself. I program my Beo5. I replaced the battery in my BS2. I have long dispised Microsoft (and Intel... and IBM...) yet, I thoroughly enjoy my BS5. At some point, I decided the "process" was not as important as the "result". It did what I wanted better, in my judgement, than anything else available at the time. If it doesn't do what you want, don't buy it. I'm not asking anybody to agree (or disagree) with me.

To the original poster, he made the right decision because his wife didn't like the BS5 - and, from experience, this is the most important factor in any decision.

Stan

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

Rookie — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 17:33:53 GMT

"At the end of the day, the forum is held hostage by a vocal minority who judge anything but a free TV with an Apple logo as one more nail in B&O's coffin"

Sorry, but this is completely without substance to me. And your ignorance start to become annoying. You don't want to lead a discussion based on facts and features. Instead you are constantly repeating the description of a static customer scenario. Don't you think it is highly unlikely, that things will stay the same. History has a quite obvious answer to that.

Do you really think, that the generation of "digital natives", who have a quite educated understanding of the technology they are using every day, will be your customers in a few years, if the products and the philosophy behind that stay the same ? In fact you won't have the choice ... you have to please the people you are constantly nagging on nowadays ... 'cause they make the money needed to be spent on B&O products. And they will have experiences other levels of quality in products and services that will redefine the standards.

You can experience a similar development/challenge in the global premium automotive market. Innovation is the key to survive, not stagnation.

Of course i understand why you might like your type of customer ... it might be a nice service fee business ... but it might also be, that educated customers WANT to understand, what your product is capable of ... he might demand clear structures and clean technical designs, so that he can fix things himself, because he simply doesn't want to wait for somebody to come ... not talking about the challenge to find a qualified service partner ... i forked out some money for service staff that went straight down the drain and did not solve my problems.

I cannot see why somebody who is discussing about a new level of product quality, is less of a B&O enthusiast. I don't think so. They are only trying to discuss quite essential demands ... and i think they care a lot about the B&O brand. Is that so hard to understand? Or is it more of a generation conflict e.g a question of age?

As some people linked the discussion with the Porsche story ... there you can find a very good example of how threatened a company was buy sticking to the past and denying the development of the rest of the world ... if they hadn't changed from aircooled models to watercooled technology with features never seen in Porsches before ... and produced in a totally different way ... they would have been dead by 1997. Instead they adapted their products to the markets without loosing too much of the Porsche DNA. The rest should be known.

Please stop to reduce this discussion to an Apple/B&O bashing. That is not the point.

Cheers

Tim

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

TripEnglish — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 17:03:10 GMT

bayerische:

TripEnglish:

bayerische:

rednik:

Most of the customers who B&O are targeting have no idea, and no desire to ever understand the technicalities of their products. They want an elegant, well performing, and fully managed solution, which probably includes calling their dealer if the battery runs flat in their remote.

And you think this is a good thing, and how it should be?!?!?!

Yes silly.

When you work hard and invest a nice chunk of change, you'll be able to drink a cocktail while a nice technician keeps your gear in good working order. Until then, enjoy your tech support calls. Press 1 to tell a computer how much money you saved buying Sonos! Your call is important to us!!!

Trip,

Once again you show your true character.

You are now number THREE in line.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

Doctor — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:52:17 GMT

Now that is what I really miss. The technical department who would know me personally and would fix any misbehavong equipment quickly and efficiently. I remember them fixing my LX on Christmas Eve with a promise if it was not ready that a replacement TV would be there for the holidays. I am afraid that is now a thing of the past with module replacement and central service centres. To give my dealer his due, I would have little doubt that the offer of a replacement TV would still be forthcoming.

That is of course another plus for Apple though, who offer a super service system via Apple Care. Had to use them once in a while and they rank with the best.

My feeling is that I love both brands and see little reason to put down one for the benefit of the other.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

TripEnglish — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:46:13 GMT

Razlaw:
How true Trip. Never thought of that. I can always call or email my dealer and know who I am talking to, no computer voices or anonymous technicians. The more I read this thread the more I appreciate our B and O products.

Makes me think how ironic the name "Genius Bar" is. The real geniuses value their own time too much to crowd into the back of a store and flush their evening down the drain. They buy better made products.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

bayerische — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:41:35 GMT

TripEnglish:

bayerische:

rednik:

Most of the customers who B&O are targeting have no idea, and no desire to ever understand the technicalities of their products. They want an elegant, well performing, and fully managed solution, which probably includes calling their dealer if the battery runs flat in their remote.

And you think this is a good thing, and how it should be?!?!?!

Yes silly.

When you work hard and invest a nice chunk of change, you'll be able to drink a cocktail while a nice technician keeps your gear in good working order. Until then, enjoy your tech support calls. Press 1 to tell a computer how much money you saved buying Sonos! Your call is important to us!!!

Trip,

Once again you show your true character.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

Razlaw — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:34:47 GMT

How true Trip. Never thought of that. I can always call or email my dealer and know who I am talking to, no computer voices or anonymous technicians. The more I read this thread the more I appreciate our B and O products.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

TripEnglish — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:28:01 GMT

bayerische:

rednik:

Most of the customers who B&O are targeting have no idea, and no desire to ever understand the technicalities of their products. They want an elegant, well performing, and fully managed solution, which probably includes calling their dealer if the battery runs flat in their remote.

And you think this is a good thing, and how it should be?!?!?!

Yes silly.

When you work hard and invest a nice chunk of change, you'll be able to drink a cocktail while a nice technician keeps your gear in good working order. Until then, enjoy your tech support calls. Press 1 to tell a computer how much money you saved buying Sonos! Your call is important to us!!!

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

mawheele — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:24:43 GMT

I'm guessing Zuckerburg, Musk, Gates, Jobs, Ellison won't be stopping by the store then.

Re: Talk me into/out of buying BS5

TripEnglish — Thu, 09 Dec 2010 16:19:59 GMT

bayerische:

Condescending to say the least. Reminds me of most Rolex stores... Well, Rolex can afford this attitude, B&O by the look of things don't.

Why would anyone buy a Rolex when a timex keeps better time for less than $30?

And don't tell me it's because of the better materials! WHO CARES??

And don't tell me it's because of the heritage! WHO CARES??

And don't tell me it's because of the service! WHO CARES??

And don't tell me it's because of the style! WHO CARES??

And don't tell me it's because of the joy of ownership! WHO CARES??

I GUESS I'M JUST NOT WHAT ROLEX WANTS IN A CUSTOMER!!! ANOTHER NAIL IN THEIR COFFIN FROM THE LOOKS OF IT!!!