General Forum

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

355f — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:18:33 GMT

frog:

355f. while you are totally correct in your statements about the D9 panel being in the BV4, I'm puzzled why you say that they are the same without the tuner - the D9 doesn't have a tuner at all - it is just a monitor.
Another point to make to confirm 355fs point; why does the BV4 have speaker outputs on it - surely if B&O manufactured it, then they wouldn't need it!

Also B&O don't coat the Panasonic screen, they put a separate anti-reflective screen in front of the D9 panel - it can be seen in the BV4 technical guide.
The evidence is overwhelming....

Your right of course!! what I meant to say was that the circuitry has been slighly modified to allow full control with BS3 not removal of the tuner which as you correctly state is not in the commercial plasma only domestic versions( i have a panasonic with tuner included) But in fact if you look at the domestic versions they look the same but with inclusive tuner.

As you quite rightly state the speaker outputs are pure panasonic-- no need or use for them for B&O

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

frog — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:02:17 GMT

355f. while you are totally correct in your statements about the D9 panel being in the BV4, I'm puzzled why you say that they are the same without the tuner - the D9 doesn't have a tuner at all - it is just a monitor.

Another point to make to confirm 355fs point; why does the BV4 have speaker outputs on it - surely if B&O manufactured it, then they wouldn't need it!

Also B&O don't coat the Panasonic screen, they put a separate anti-reflective screen in front of the D9 panel - it can be seen in the BV4 technical guide.

The evidence is overwhelming....

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

355f — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 03:21:36 GMT

joynsyde:

Yes, strong stuff, and I feel like there's a lot of emotion going on in this thread.
Yet, all I've seen so far is speculation. 355f said the back of his BeoVision looks exactly the same as the back of his Panasonic, except there's no tuner. (That's not very exact.) And he implies that because a lot of AV companies buy components from his electronics factories in China , Bang & Olufsen surely must do the same from some other company. (Not that that's necessarily an unfair assumption, but it's still an assumption.) And Graham doesn't "suppose" Japan has glass factories. Do we have any documentation? Official statements from the company itself? Sorry, the scholar in me is coming out!
Not that it matters, really. The specific topic we are dealing with is BeoVision 9, and we all agree that it is a wonderful television, no matter how many countries it goes through before it gets to your home.
We can gripe all we want, but if we really don't agree with globalization and the use of sweat shops, and so on (and I surely don't), we should take meaningful actions to promote meaningful solutions. Meanwhile, we should get solid facts before accusing a company of doing something we disagree with.
Best,
Aj

Firstly our company makes the finished product for the brands- not the components.

I will endevour to post pictures of the back of the panasonic G9 and the latest version of BV4. If you remove the alu trim from the front of the plasma it reveals the panasonic frame -and the B&O frame even covers the IR eye that is used on the panasonic screen. In the service manual for BV4 certain procedures require the use of 'the no name remote' as B&O call it- but clearly show the panasonic remote!

The BV8 is made entirely in China and I can furnish you with the factory name off line if you so desire. Im trying to be as exact as I can!

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

joeyboygolf — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:36:20 GMT

At one time in my life I worked for a number of years for the Philips group. They were one of the biggest manufacturers of CRT's in the world with glass factories in a number of countries including the UK. Glass production moved to China and India and was shipped back to the UK for assembly. Now they make the whole sets in China and ship the completed sets back to the UK for sale. The only thing that is British manufactured is the price tag!

I don't find anything wrong with this, it is pure common sense economics. What I don't understand is the reluctance of many of our members to acknowledge that it goes on and are surprised to find B&O goods with "made in China" stickers on them.

I am sure that most manufacturers now manufacture in China, they can't afford to manufacture anywhere else.

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

355f — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:51:32 GMT

joynsyde:

Yes, strong stuff, and I feel like there's a lot of emotion going on in this thread.
Yet, all I've seen so far is speculation. 355f said the back of his BeoVision looks exactly the same as the back of his Panasonic, except there's no tuner. (That's not very exact.) And he implies that because a lot of AV companies buy components from his electronics factories in China , Bang & Olufsen surely must do the same from some other company. (Not that that's necessarily an unfair assumption, but it's still an assumption.) And Graham doesn't "suppose" Japan has glass factories. Do we have any documentation? Official statements from the company itself? Sorry, the scholar in me is coming out!
Not that it matters, really. The specific topic we are dealing with is BeoVision 9, and we all agree that it is a wonderful television, no matter how many countries it goes through before it gets to your home.
We can gripe all we want, but if we really don't agree with globalization and the use of sweat shops, and so on (and I surely don't), we should take meaningful actions to promote meaningful solutions. Meanwhile, we should get solid facts before accusing a company of doing something we disagree with.
Best,
Aj

I think we are getting a little confused here!

Our company makes the finished product in China and it is then branded with the appropriate name and distributed worldwide.

If you want facts. the FACT is the panel is made by panasonic and its a D9 or D10 panel!! I will post pictures of the two side by side- they are IDENTICAL apart from the removal of the tuner- This is FACT. and will show the unit covered with made in china on it!

The service manual for the BV4 range asks that for certain procedures you should use the 'no name remote' and it clearly shows a panasonic remote!! even the sensor that panasonic use is covered over by the alu frame!! anyone that has a BV4 take off the frame and you will see it!! as further proof if you need it I would be happy to mail you ofline with the name opf the company that makes the BV8 IN CHINA tthere are other products that are made mainly in china as well.

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

joynsyde — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:58:39 GMT

Yes, strong stuff, and I feel like there's a lot of emotion going on in this thread.

Yet, all I've seen so far is speculation. 355f said the back of his BeoVision looks exactly the same as the back of his Panasonic, except there's no tuner. (That's not very exact.) And he implies that because a lot of AV companies buy components from his electronics factories in China , Bang & Olufsen surely must do the same from some other company. (Not that that's necessarily an unfair assumption, but it's still an assumption.) And Graham doesn't "suppose" Japan has glass factories. Do we have any documentation? Official statements from the company itself? Sorry, the scholar in me is coming out!

Not that it matters, really. The specific topic we are dealing with is BeoVision 9, and we all agree that it is a wonderful television, no matter how many countries it goes through before it gets to your home.

We can gripe all we want, but if we really don't agree with globalization and the use of sweat shops, and so on (and I surely don't), we should take meaningful actions to promote meaningful solutions. Meanwhile, we should get solid facts before accusing a company of doing something we disagree with.

Best,

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

355f — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:56:47 GMT

joeyboygolf:

Us good people of the so called 1st or civilised world need to wake up to the fact that we cannot afford to actually make anything from raw materials any more. The dirty work is all done in those countries where you are still allowed to pollute the environment and kill off the workforce while paying them peanuts! Our environment police together with our inflated wage rates have simply priced us out of our own markets.
Comodities like glass, steel, bulk chemicals etc are all now made in places like China. In the last decade or so we have also taught them to actually combine these "raw" materials into a finished product in their sweatshops. Western and Japanese conglomerates place them in a box designed to look familiar to western eyes and sell them as their own.
B&O buying glass from Japan!!!! I don't suppose there is anywhere in Japan where they are still allowed to make glass or where they could afford to make it.

Amen,

The chinese care only about one thing MONEY, quality and decency in manufacturing China are not words mentioned. Whilst the west and in particular the UK set up 'the Carbon trust' and other worthless tax raising bodies China goes on with No or very little controls, no red tape, building 4 new coal powered stations every week to support the growth that our political system wont allow in our own countries.

Of course American industry is at last aware of the devasting effects on their jobs and economy and now want trade limitations.

Rather than have all these bodies to Tax us on everything based on a 'carbon footprint' why not simply issue a levy on any items imported from China that are not made in an environmental way. Hence allowing a level playing field.

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

Jandyt — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:43:50 GMT

Wow, strong stuff, Graham!

Andy T.

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

joeyboygolf — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:35:37 GMT

Us good people of the so called 1st or civilised world need to wake up to the fact that we cannot afford to actually make anything from raw materials any more. The dirty work is all done in those countries where you are still allowed to pollute the environment and kill off the workforce while paying them peanuts! Our environment police together with our inflated wage rates have simply priced us out of our own markets.

Comodities like glass, steel, bulk chemicals etc are all now made in places like China. In the last decade or so we have also taught them to actually combine these "raw" materials into a finished product in their sweatshops. Western and Japanese conglomerates place them in a box designed to look familiar to western eyes and sell them as their own.

B&O buying glass from Japan!!!! I don't suppose there is anywhere in Japan where they are still allowed to make glass or where they could afford to make it.

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

355f — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:59:10 GMT

joynsyde:
355f:

Of course B&O dont make the screen, they buy it from the panasonic plant in China. b&o do use the commercial varient of the panel which makes it more long lived. You are not buying a hand made product from B&O in this regard! handmade by chinese on low salaries yes!!
Just curious where you get your information from. I was told by my B&O dealer that they get the glass for their plasma screens from Japan. Japan has invested in the infrastructure to have large glass factories, and Struer wouldn't be able to support the personnel, space, and supplies needed for a large glass factory (not to mention the pollution). But B&O buys the best glass panels available, then brings them home, applies their special coatings, arranges the other components, and so on.
Of course Bang & Olufsen doesn't make every single component from scratch! That would be stupid. NO company does that, for that matter. But nobody would say that a restaurant doesn't make their own food just because they don't grow their own vegetables and butcher their own animals. Restaurants buy ingredients from suppliers, and "assemble" everything at the restaurant. The quality of the food suppliers is part of the recipe, but the real magic happens with a good chef. Same with B&O. They buy highest-quality components, then engineer and assemble everything at home. I'm sure they don't make their own speaker cones, copper wires, screws, etc. If they did, everything would be 10 times more expensive than it is! But the ingenious way they use those components is just magic!

I get my information as I run an electronics company based in China that manufactures audio and some video products for many of the brands ( not B&O!!) I appreciate that a company cant buy all the 'ingredients' as you put it but in this instance they are buying vitually a READY MADE MEAL!! I can assure you of that!

I like B&O and whilst I could have any brand I choose it because it looks good and the integration is good. DONT make the mistake of thinking that because one pays a HIGH price one is buying the very best components! in many instances the items used are of a rather POOR quality and this is FACT!

What B&O are good at is taking the 'ready made meal' and spending some time on the engineering side seeing how best they can improve what is already made ( in the case of plasma- not some audio) and because the japanese brands ( who all have operations in China) dont spend money on good tuners B&O work the magic to make it better, look better and integrate it. THAT is what you pay for it is simply NOT about quality at all! The B&O plasmas are the PANASONIC D9 and D10 variants, I have both and if you take the backs off there is NO difference! ------- oh yes there is!!!! B&O REMOVE the tuner but charge 6 times the price for the panel.

However your B&O dealers story is a nice one!!

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

joynsyde — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:11:36 GMT

355f:
Of course B&O dont make the screen, they buy it from the panasonic plant in China. b&o do use the commercial varient of the panel which makes it more long lived. You are not buying a hand made product from B&O in this regard! handmade by chinese on low salaries yes!!

Just curious where you get your information from. I was told by my B&O dealer that they get the glass for their plasma screens from Japan. Japan has invested in the infrastructure to have large glass factories, and Struer wouldn't be able to support the personnel, space, and supplies needed for a large glass factory (not to mention the pollution). But B&O buys the best glass panels available, then brings them home, applies their special coatings, arranges the other components, and so on.

Of course Bang & Olufsen doesn't make every single component from scratch! That would be stupid. NO company does that, for that matter. But nobody would say that a restaurant doesn't make their own food just because they don't grow their own vegetables and butcher their own animals. Restaurants buy ingredients from suppliers, and "assemble" everything at the restaurant. The quality of the food suppliers is part of the recipe, but the real magic happens with a good chef. Same with B&O. They buy highest-quality components, then engineer and assemble everything at home. I'm sure they don't make their own speaker cones, copper wires, screws, etc. If they did, everything would be 10 times more expensive than it is! But the ingenious way they use those components is just magic!

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

massimo — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:55:09 GMT

All great advises guys... you have made this a little bit clearer for me... thanks a lot!!!

Massimo

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

chrisped — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:53:11 GMT

Another little point worth mentioning is that in a recent survey covering Japan, China, Germany, France, and England - 4 out 5 respondents prefered the plasma picture over the LCD picture in a side-by-side comparision.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/05/recent-survey-suggests-plasmas-preferred-over-lcds/

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

355f — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:16:29 GMT

archie:

i have a pioneer plasma since 3 years, and all is OK no burning.
the problem with a 21000 euros plasma is than the technologie grow very fast, too fast.
For the 4000 euros of my old 43 inch HD ready plasma i can have now a full HD 55 inch.
In 5 or 6 years you will by buy a 120 inch oled TV for 5000 euros, and your BV9 seems very litle.

This is a totally different point of course. First of all I can tell you that oled, laser tv, sed tv are still so far from reality and indeed the problem now is that the prices of plasma and lcd has dropped so much the manufacturers are wondering if they will ever get an invstement back that they make in new technology for display manufacture. How can they introduce another flatscreen technolgy that is so much more expensive than that presently offered?? fact is no one will buy it! so for the next say 4 years I dont think this is an issue. There are still reliability issues to be overcome with oled for example!!!! whlst the advances in panel design have been large over the past seven years, each new variant is not such a large leap forward now.
So the point is one wants the best picture one can get now and the BV9 really is good that I dont think one is going to be saying in 5 years that one regretted the purchase. The differences in technolgy are smaller and smaller with each advancement.
One can use the argument that one could buy another make of plasma but as many have discovered, it doesnt offer true compatability with the BS3 there seems to be scalling issues, you cant adjust contrast features on it, sone have to use a non B&O remote and do you really want say a pioneer panle with all your B&O equipment

Re: realistic life expectancy of a plasma panel ???

archie — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:03:11 GMT

i have a pioneer plasma since 3 years, and all is OK no burning.

the problem with a 21000 euros plasma is than the technologie grow very fast, too fast.

For the 4000 euros of my old 43 inch HD ready plasma i can have now a full HD 55 inch.

In 5 or 6 years you will by buy a 120 inch oled TV for 5000 euros, and your BV9 seems very litle.