General Forum

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

beolion — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 08:16:39 GMT

I do manually copy the content of the BM5 to my NAS in case the BM5 brakes down. I use a program so that only new files are copied, but it is still a manual process.

Even though I run RAID5 on my NAS, I do still not always trust my hardware, and not B&O's HW either :-)

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

Electrified — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 07:02:21 GMT

talisman:

Seems that servicetoolen used to add serialnumber from the new HDD in the other modules in the BM5.

Yes, probably. It should still not be a problem to swap harddrives.

Edit:

The part I bolded says that it stores the serial data on the hdd as "a backup" and that it rewrites it every time the BM5 is booted.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

talisman — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 06:56:49 GMT

Seems that servicetoolen used to add serialnumber from the new HDD in the other modules in the BM5.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

Electrified — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 06:31:29 GMT

talisman:

When either PCB01, Mainboard (BS5), PCB51, ML-PL (BM5) or PCB01,
Motherboard (BM5) has been replaced, the firmware must be updated in the
individual module. The ServiceTool is necessary for this operation.
! The serial number is stored in the following places:

- PCB01, Mainboard (BS5)
- PCB01, Motherboard (BM5)
- PCB94, HDD (BM5)

If the PCB01, Mainboard (BS5) or the PCB01, Motherboard (BM5) and PCB94, HDD (BM5) have been replaced, the ServiceTool is required to initialise the serial number into the new module.
The HDD contains the serial number for both the PCB01, Mainboard and the
PCB01, Motherboard as a backup. Serial data is stored on the HDD each time
BeoMaster 5 is starts up.

Hmm, it still doesn't mean you can't clone the hdd and swap it out. Just like on an ordinary computer or even my Thinkpad(s).

In fact, the bolded part suggests the serial number is written to the hdd automatically.

It doesn't explain what a B&O Service Case" is either.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

talisman — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 06:16:08 GMT

When either PCB01, Mainboard (BS5), PCB51, ML-PL (BM5) or PCB01,
Motherboard (BM5) has been replaced, the firmware must be updated in the
individual module. The ServiceTool is necessary for this operation.
! The serial number is stored in the following places:

- PCB01, Mainboard (BS5)
- PCB01, Motherboard (BM5)
- PCB94, HDD (BM5)

If the PCB01, Mainboard (BS5) or the PCB01, Motherboard (BM5) and PCB94, HDD (BM5) have been replaced, the ServiceTool is required to initialise the serial number into the new module.
The HDD contains the serial number for both the PCB01, Mainboard and the
PCB01, Motherboard as a backup. Serial data is stored on the HDD each time
BeoMaster 5 is starts up.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

csmager — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 04:15:10 GMT

I'd rather back it up properly - I'm currently in the process of ripping and encoding DVD/Blu-rays as H.264. I'm not sure I could ever be bothered to do it again - it takes a huge amount of my time.

Agreed on the above sceptical comment re BM5 hard discs. It's just a PC? I can't see that swapping it would cause an issue, as long as you transferred the underlying data across.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

Electrified — Mon, 11 Oct 2010 02:44:49 GMT

soundproof:

<But I guess everybody has his media backed up on those shiny, round thingies it originally came on anyway >

I do.

Not all of "my media" came originally on shiny-round things. Many, if not most, of the GBs I have are recorded by myself (not much music, mind). It's only the music I have bought "as is" - already completely finished - that I have on cd's. I have a couple of albums I downloaded in high res flac (all legit).

I'm trying to say, that although I don't do illegal downloads, nor use lossy formats, I really don't use my cd's. I have come to trust harddisks and my back up regime. I have to, since I rely on harddisks for audio/work and have done so for many, many years. My most used recorder has a HDD and a CF card, and my everyday-carry recorder uses an sdhc-card and has 8GB of internal flash memory.

I really don't see a problem with not using optical media. I even have my install discs for various OS's, apps etc. on a couple of USB-sticks.

talisman:

You can not manually change the hard drive of the BM5, if you do not have the B & O service case. The hard drive is namely mated with BM5 hardware.

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What the hell is a "B&O service case"? And what's more, why would B&O make it impossible to swap the harddrive? It's a computer, even if the OS is embedded.

Can you point me to somewhere semi official which supports your claim?

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

talisman — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:50:21 GMT

You can not manually change the hard drive of the BM5, if you do not have the B & O service case. The hard drive is namely mated with BM5 hardware.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

soundproof — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:16:32 GMT

I do.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

tournedos — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 08:11:17 GMT

Unit failure isn't much of a problem if you run the server on for example Linux software-based RAID. If the machine dies, just get another generic PC, put the drives in there and off you go.

But, it still isn't totally safe - a friend of mine lost his RAID array because another drive failed before the rebuild was complete. A lightning strike or power supply failure may well kill more than one drive.

But I guess everybody has his media backed up on those shiny, round thingies it originally came on anyway

SSD would be good place for storage like this, which is mostly read only and therefore won't wear them out prematurely - but I can't see it becoming cost effective for media storage in years... if ever, because the need for storage space grows as well.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

csmager — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:38:35 GMT

RAID isn't backup though - you should still back it up elsewhere.

It's more likely that the unit would fail rather than a drive. Then you lose everything, or spend a lot of time trying to find the exact same hardware and hope you can recover it. I've been running RAID5 for ages, and I've lost the whole array at least 2-3 times due to hardware failure or accidentally knocking connections and then the controller deciding that two drives are missing. Fortunately, I have the whole 4Tb array mirrored somewhere else.

Good article on that point here: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/nas/nas-basics/30060-smart-sohos-dont-do-raid

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

soundproof — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:20:22 GMT

I should touch wood before stating it, but my NAS harddisks have now been running without interruption for over 14.000 hours ... and as they are in a RAID configuration, I can back up with ease if one of them fails. I'd prefer that to SSD.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

Electrified — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 07:14:33 GMT

pf85:

Given that Hard Disks may have a shorter life than storage devices with unmovable parts, would it make sense to have BM5 switch to a SSD approach?

As other have said, flash such as ssds, even an SLC SSD have limited read/write.

The benefit of using SSD over a harddisk would be:
1: Lighter than a HDD, but that shouldn't matter in a stationary object.

2: silent. It could matter, depending on where you place the BM5. But going to a laptop drive should be plenty enough.

3: Much more robust than a hard drive. But you don't need ruggedness in what amounts to a desktop computer. I doubt you'd be banging it around.

4: Faster (if the right one is chosen), but you don't need faster to play back stereo files.

5: Smaller, but going to a laptop drive and rethink how that monstrosity is put together could cut 90 percent of the volume of it without any problems whatsoever.

Against it is price - especially if you were to opt for an SLC drive and you want more than 80gigs, and even that doesn't come cheap.

a) would it be technically feasible to replace harddisk by SSD ?

Yes, and you could probably do it yourself.

b) should B&O adopt such an approach ?

No. It's gimmicky, and with lossless files and even a medium sized music collection it would pointless and expensive.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

Chrisreunion — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 03:19:09 GMT

I think BM5 should not even exist anymore!

B&O should simply fit its BeoVisions and BeoSounds with a USB input to which you can connect any storage device (USB key or big hard drive), that will scan audio files for the BeoSound, and video files for the BeoVision; and if you have an existing network, why not also fit the master product with an Ethernet socket or a wi-fi receiver, to link to your network & get the files directly? No need for an external box, no noise, just one simple cable and a GUI.

This is what most (if not all) other manufacturers have been doing for years, and to me, it is the most durable solution, since B&O hardware will always be outdated very quickly (see Apple Lossless issues with BM5), a USB or Ethernet socket is the easiest way for updates too. You could even imagine self diagnosis of the product and remote assistance for some faults.

Re: BM5 with SSD instead of Hard Drive ?

csmager — Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:53:13 GMT

And flash based hard drives have a limited number of writes before they die - so there's not much in it.

Given that in this application there'd be nearly no performance benefit, and that an SSD costs so much more than a normal HDD, I think they've chosen the right one.