General Forum

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

kimhav — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:28:40 GMT

Well, as many other users I've started to look around for replacement of BeoPort and BeoMedia 1 and while the Encore is tempting but missing the still the Digital ML Ethernet bridge component which has been said to be around by now but been delayed.

So SONOS seems like a nice option; has good apps for both Android and iPhone and best of all there are already people who rebuild the SONOS to improve both the digital and analog output. Even if the SONOS, when reading around, seems to get the best reviews in regards of audio output it still has issues with jitter.

From Swedish forum I found the following description from Dr. Gert Volk:

"The most important voltage is the supply for the clock. The original clock
is supplied by very raw stabilized 3.3V from the switching PSU. I cut the
supply of the original clock and the clock line. A new board is implemented.
The function is: I take the 12V analogue voltage, witch comes from the
switching PSU (13V) and is stabililized by an analogue regulator to 12V.
This voltage (the ripple on it is already ok) passes a passiv RC filter,
realized by a metal film resistor and a Panasonic FC cap. Now we have 11V.
Next step is an LM317 which regulates the voltage down to 7.8V. But it's not
the normal circuit taken from the datasheet - it comes together with a shunt
regulator, what outplays the normal LM317 circuit by a factor of 100. But
this is only the appetizer! Now comes a circuit called superreg by the
experts. It's a special calculated current source followed by a special very
low noise shunt regulator. Now we are down to very clean 5V. This is the
supply for the reclocker, and be assured, a battery is something like a
noisy source compared to this voltage. But from there I use another 1,7V as
fuel to get 3.3V used as the final supply for the clock, passing a
combination of activ and passiv RC filters (Panasonic FC, one of the best
caps in the world, is used for it of course). Ok, I forgot a LC filter for
the remaining hign frequency rubbish on this PSU line, but now it is as
clean as possible. There is nothing more to do for the best possible supply
a clock can get in this world, I think. And the digital stream coming from
this player is as clean as possible, too. Because one of the best clocks in
the world, Guido's tentclock, is fed by the power supply as described above.
And the remaining little grunge on the outcoming signal is removed by the
reclocking circuit, a first in first out memory, that is supplied by the 5V
described above and clocked by the same clock as the streamer is - the
tentclock. So I think this is the maximum I can get from a ZP90."

and at another Danish forum I found the following:

"I am glad to hear, that your ZP80 is doing it's job fine.

What I did: The original clock has been removed and a very pricise new clock came in (jitter is about 1ps!). Very important for the performance of the clock ist the power supply, so I did everything what can be done concerning the supply. Now the superclock controls the data acquisition. Anyhow, on the way through the chips the rising edge of data and clock becomes a little bit fuzzy - so reclocking of the s/pdif data stream by the same superclock is done. The reclocker is a FIFO memory (first in first out).

Digital data can be different either because data (high and low) is different, or because the timing of the data is different. Fuzziness of timing (jitter) is the analogue component of digital data. It produces destortion of the analogue signal in the DA converter process. Unfortunately one can not remove the jitter of the source completely in the DAC, there is some jitter remaining, even if you try to remove it by asynchronous sample rate converters and so on - cross-talk is the reason.

So the best you con do is to assure that the data stream coming from the digital source is as accurate as possible.

Best Gert"

And when reading the reviews on the improvements made it clearly is worth the additional 300 euro for the digital upgrade and if needed as well the 300 euros for the analog upgrade.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

folkdeejay — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:07:27 GMT

TripEnglish:
Fortunately in the coming 4-6 months the BeoSound 5 will offer an higher quality and more robust version of the Sonos system and it will continue to grow from there.

Good to hear.

So your saying that via Bsnd 5 we will have multi source, streamed audio, access to NAS drives, Napster, last fm, spotify, local line in (accessable in all other rooms), locally displayed cover art/ streamed content info, a choice of active or passive speakers in each room, single remote operation.

More robust is also good, so that suggests that, as per sonos, - each link product will work as a "mesh" for the remote /wireless network coverage, and relay commands to rooms via each other from a local remote. All working without inter-room cables, as per sonos.

Superb.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

TripEnglish — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:32:23 GMT

The best reason I can think of is integration. I might mention sound quality (not of the hardware per se, but of the various services that stream through it), but I can foresee the "who cares?" argument.

But the integration has been what's kept us from using it more during the interim period while the BeoSound 5 gets outfitted with similar technology. It just doesn't play nicely with other devices natively. You have to either live with putting down one remote and picking up another or listening to your music through one set of speakers and your tv through another. It's just not as seamless as my clients demand.

It's been discussed ad nauseum, but my clients walk through the door looking for a high quality easy to use home av system. When you start talking about using this remote to do A and then your iPhone or some other remote to do B, they get the shakes. They're coming to me to get rid of that lifestyle.

Fortunately in the coming 4-6 months the BeoSound 5 will offer an higher quality and more robust version of the Sonos system and it will continue to grow from there.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

Pauliander — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:19:57 GMT

macjonny1:

For example, I have my sonos plugged into the AUX on my BC9500, one to a BS1, etc.

I just set the volume to a medium and then go up/down from there.

It is at least reassuring that you don't have return to the beo 4 each time when you want to change the volume of the Sonos music. Everything goes through the Iphone/Ipad which is really great! I suppose that would be also possible when using a DAC in between?

But honnestly, why are you still keeping a B&O system in between the Sonos and the B&O speakers after all?

Taking into account the flexibility of the Sonos / Apple delivered content, I am seriously thinking of going immediately toward a Sonos / B&O speakers set up in all rooms of my house. Are there any serious arguments for keeping a B&O system module (such as BC2 or BS9000 ....) in between the set-up?

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

folkdeejay — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 06:05:01 GMT

macjonny1:

You can control the volume from any of your sonos devices with the sonos remote or the iphone/ipad app. You set the volume on your B&O device, and then move it up or down from there with the Sonos.

For example, I have my sonos plugged into the AUX on my BC9500, one to a BS1, etc.

I just set the volume to a medium and then go up/down from there.

Correct - or you can set the sonos to fixed line out, and use B&O volumes locally.

Sonos linking up with spotify too - a very powerful combination in terms of content. How it sounds depends on what you use it with and if you have the higher rate premium service.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

Harry2008 — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:57:04 GMT

Reading this thread I get a bit sad. The BS5 could mimic a lot of this functionality quite easily IF B&O decided to update and strengthen the software in use on the BM5/BS5 combo. Maybe this comes when the new Beo6 is released..

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

macjonny1 — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:43:12 GMT

You can control the volume from any of your sonos devices with the sonos remote or the iphone/ipad app. You set the volume on your B&O device, and then move it up or down from there with the Sonos.

For example, I have my sonos plugged into the AUX on my BC9500, one to a BS1, etc.

I just set the volume to a medium and then go up/down from there.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

mbee — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:39:34 GMT

Sonos analog output can be set to variable line signal (set by default). So if you use the volume control on your Sonos remote/iPhone/iPad, the volume goes down on the system.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

Pauliander — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:48:16 GMT

folkdeejay:

Or a mixture - I can think of several systems where we used B&O video distribution, often with a Beosound9000/4 in the living room - but that was partly as a visual or design element, to be honest. But all the audio link rooms are controlled via sonos, using their remotes or iphones app. The "compromise" here is that once sonos is selected as an input on the B&O audio or video products, you switch to the sonos remote in those rooms too.

Folk DJ, could you explain exactly what happens in a hybrid B&O / sonos system? For instance, a sonos is coupled to a BC 2 through aux-in. Of course, you have to select the Aux-in function in the menu of the BC 2 to play sonos delivered content. I suppose you also have to use the Sonos remote or Iphone, Ipad, etc. to select and play songs. My question then relates to the volume: do you still have to use the beo 4 or beo 5 to set and change the volume of the speakers coupled to the BC2? Or can you also avoid that ? If not, I don't see the point of using a hybrid system ? Thanks for any feedback

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

vlohjr1 — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:58:08 GMT

thanks for that.

I am planning to do the same for sonos. How does:

Beolabs connect with sonos and beolink wireless in the same loudspeaker as I like beolink for video sound and sonos for wireless audio? can you switch with remote?

Can you connect sonos directly with Beovisions for control?

many thanks for your help

Vince

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

StUrrock — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:47:46 GMT

We can operate the Sonos via The Beo4/Beo5 on every TV using this driver and Control4

http://www.extravegetables.com/control4_sonos.htm

works well

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

folkdeejay — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 04:16:03 GMT

mbee:

I'm planning to create a Sonos+B&O setup on a friend's father home.

The setup will consist on Beolabs on "link rooms" connected to (hidden) ZP90 (I've seen on the Sonos forum that people connectiong Sonos to B&O never complain, on contrary to people connecting Airport Express to B&O). The remote control will be at first the Sonos software for iPod/iPhone, maybe a Sonos remote will be added later if he finds that the reconnexion time of the ipod is too long (has to be tested).

All the music will be stored in a NAS (probably a MyBook World NAS). This NAS also contains all SD and HD videos.

On the main room, a WD TV Live will allow full access to the NAS for video and audio playback.

This setup will allow to distribute audio all around the home, and select tracks on a cool touchscreen with cover art... Everything with perfect (B&O) audio quality. What I hoped for years B&O would do, but unfortunately they are too focused on backward compatibility with Masterlink to jump to this kind of tech now...

In my "previous life" @ B&O King Street, we installed many systems that were sonos/B&O hybrids. Very effective, and 99% of customers love the functionality.

You can use sonos with B&O in three main ways - via line in to supply single room B&O with content, or in link systems with streamed audion and net radio - or just put Beolabxxxx on the end of a sonos distribution system, with no B&O audio/link products.

Or a mixture - I can think of several systems where we used B&O video distribution, often with a Beosound9000/4 in the living room - but that was partly as a visual or design element, to be honest. But all the audio link rooms are controlled via sonos, using their remotes or iphones app. The "compromise" here is that once sonos is selected as an input on the B&O audio or video products, you switch to the sonos remote in those rooms too.

It is very easy for families to pick up the operation - and by putting beolab/beovox speakers, you get B&O audio performance and design qualities in the rooms.

Beolab 4000 - wall mounted throughout a house, make for a very nice, easy to use system - with superb sound. Seperate sources in each room is a BIG appeal - and access to napster/lastfm etc make it very user friendly.

Local line in means you can easily include video products in the set ups - and these can be accessed from any other room.

The one drawback is the "fidelity", particularly of net-sourced content - but then in a kitchen/bathroom/bedroom, for most people it is more about access to content - they just take it as a given that the sound, via beolabs, is still very good - which it is - and the reality is that unless you use Lab 9 or higher, and you're in a more critical listening envronment rather than background music, the sound of a sonos driven beloab 4000/6000/8000 is still superb.

I think I'm right saying that King Street has the sonos fully set up at the shop - and also a "mobile" home demo kit, ready to set up on loan/demo for customers who want to try before they buy. They certainly did up until March this year. I'm sure they would help any beoworld callers - even if you are out of area/country, and just want a bit of advice.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

Michael — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:38:46 GMT

elephant:
However the Apple dealer never had it wired up for demonstration so I never knew what it sounded like !!!

That is so typical. So many times i've been in to an Apple place and asked them to demo something that wasn't standard and it's always too hard. When ever that's the case, i just walk out and head to some where with SERVICE.

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

ed7 — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:39:13 GMT

I like it,shame b&o do not produce something similar!!!

Re: SONOS multi-room audio

beoinbuff — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:11:16 GMT

I'm sure I wouldn't be able to tell difference. The built in dac of the sonos is fine. I mainly got the benchmark because it also has a built in high quality headphone amp for late night listening.