General Forum

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Jonathan — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 06:47:04 GMT

One thing i'd like to add is this:

A good friend of mine was happy to spend a decent amount of money on a new tv, but couldn't quite extend to b&o. He bought a Leowe because the reviews rated it the best in his budget and he was very happy with the picture instore. He has it connected to a Bose surround sound processor and is happy.

EXCEPT..... Just after he bought it, I asked him if he was happy with his new purchase. I expected a very enthusiastic response. His response was that the tv is great, but to watch it without it connected to the bose system (eg when he wants to stay up late watching something without disturbing the family) he is extremely disappointed with the sound from the tvs built in speakers. I think he regrets not spending the extra dollars to buy b&o as per my recommendation!

It is my belief that b&o is the only tv that offers brilliant built in sound in its tvs, and this is a pretty big thing to consider!

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Stan — Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:33:46 GMT

Since you two seem to be talking past each other now, maybe I'll add my two cents to this (since I started this thread )...

Puncher seems to think that because "visionclear" is now "just algorithms", there's no guarantee that it's any better than any other TV.

Trip is up to his old tricks... wrapping some good bits of information in his special "Trip-isms" that tends to set some folks off.

To Puncher's point, I'm not sure how the fact that it's algorithms vs. circuits makes much of a difference. In today's digital world, it's all algorithms now. Didn't other high end analog sets once have competing "visionclear-like" circuitry? I seem to recall seeing ads to this effect back before the world went digital. Now, it's competing algorithms... how is that so different? Proprietary circuits vs. proprietary algorithms? Still takes R&D to get it right, probably significant R&D.

Can we always assume that B&O is best? Trip is biased on this point, and everybody that's spent any amount of time on this site should understand this.

I think my BV8-40 has a great picture, and most people who watch my TV agree. In the US, most have never seen a B&O TV or know anything about one (at least in the circles I travel) so I know they're not just saying this because of "marketing", and the comments are normally unsolicited. Maybe they've never seen a properly calibrated TV or maybe B&O's algorithms are superior? I don't really care.

Stan

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Puncher — Mon, 05 Sep 2011 01:36:19 GMT

Steady on Trip - no need to throw a wobbly!!

"The problem with standard settings, however, is the high colour temperature of slightly more than 9000 Kelvin. We are aiming for 6500 Kelvin, and the 9000 Kelvin of the BeoVision 7-55 result in a colder, more bluish picture, whereas our reference temperature of 6500º Kelvin produces a warmer, redder picture.

This is a consistent choice on the part of Bang & Olufsen, and has been identified in numerous consumer tests. We saw it in our tests of the BeoVision 10 and the BeoVision 8-40, but I am still not entirely in favour of this disposition." Taken from LINK.

The Bravia TV actively adjusts for overall room brightness and colour temperature as does B&O - the link was not useless! (Chrominance is a term used to describe part of the make up of a video signal and isn't something measured from the room).

My original post was meant to point out that the ideas and concepts behind the term "Visionclear" wasn't something only used by B&O and that other manufacturers had similar systems - there seemed to be an impression, at least by some, that it was totally unique.

I'll not bother responding to the rest of your post.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

TripEnglish — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 17:28:21 GMT

Punchkin, if we're opting for a cooler picture (and I don't believe we are, I'd be interested to see if you could site such an article), I would assume it would be due to the outcome of viewing panels. Having seen these in action it's clear that the engineers aren't just looking to blindly push values in one direction or another. The outcomes are shaped by the input of regular people giving their feedback.

And in fairness, point one is generally outlining a design & engineering statement. It wasn't meant to contain technical information.

And in fairness, your link to the Bravia TV doesn't actually a) capture the same data that the B&O sensors do (i.e. chromanance values) and b) feed it into the same sort of active renderign B&O does. So in fairness the link is useless.

And also in fairness, no one is assuming that the PixelWorks chipset is superior. That topic is easily researched since they OEM for several manufacturers and ample third party review material exists. The general consensus is that they're among the best out there. And logically, since we're not afraid to charge whatever we'd like for televisions and can source whatever we'd like, it sort of stands to reason that we'd probably just go right ahead and snatch up the best of what's out there.

And in quadruple fairness, thanks for your kind words about the BeoSystem 3. It would like to write a review of you, but has no arms or hands with which to do so. But it likes you, don't worry. It just doesn't assume that you're better than other people without knowing how well your algorithms are implemented.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

bsantini — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:02:44 GMT

Technical aspects are never a given.

But with almost any B&O stuff, it is always very good...especially on the bottom line of longterm viewing or listening comfort.

Considering their design, build quality and the overall gestalt of their ownership experience, I'll take the odds on a B&O purchase everytime.

Everything else I buy should deliver on the above as well as they do, for my money!

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Puncher — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 14:47:23 GMT

TripEnglish:

This is true, but these are prefessional reviewers. Most people do not know how to access the correct menus let alone how to adjust the chromatic values, luminant values, and geometric values to achieve either a THX or ISF calibration. Bang & Olufsen televisions, on the other hand, are ISF calibrated from the factory (these values are printed on the back of BeoVision 4 panels for example and are entered into the BeoSystem 3 by the installing technician). To have an ISF representative perform the calibration in the field is around $1,200USD, so add that to the cost of whatever disposable television you buy.

As for the the picture competencies, I found my binder, but there are 11 pages of material on both the approach and the technology. I don't have a digital version, but maybe I could figure out my scanner at some point. Here are some of the basics:

1. We focus on the quality on the chain, which begins with the transmission or storage media and ends with the environmental conditions. Contrast this with other televisions that deal with their on-board hardware only.

2. We take an adaptive approach. There is measurement & analysis of incoming transmissions. This data is measured against an ideal set of values so different actions are taken on different parameters from frame to frame (for a very cool representation of this, ask your dealer to put their television in "dealer mode" and watch the graph of values change as the lights are changed in the room and different images are displayed on the television). Contrast this with a single set of algorythms universally applied.

3. We value viewing comfort and use viewing panels to measure how much of a given effect to use in "correcting" an image. As an anecdote, the thing that most people comment on when viewing a TV for the first time in my showroom is the smoothness of the motion. A percentage of people often don't like the effect as the smoothness can be interpreted as "too perfect" giving film the appearance of a video frame rate and changing the artistic character of the film. These folks are in the minority in my experience, but it shows that there's no such thing as an objectively perfect image standard.

And more specifically on the hardware, the BeoSystem 3 uses sensors built into the screens to measure ambient light for brightness & color temperature as well as, in the case of plasmas, the color values of the panel itself. It also puts the incoming signals through an analysis that measures for contrast, sharpness, native frame rate, transmission artifacts, etc. and then applies correction for display. This occurs across several modules in the chassis, one of which contains the Pixelworks chipset ("PW" in the SW suite).

The reviews I've read of Beovisions almost always quote the colour temperature to be significantly higher than the ISF "recommended" value of 6500K, although this seems to be a consistent B&O choice, resulting in a slightly cooler, bluer picture - or so it's claimed. B&O obviously believe this to be better than the standard, it would be interesting to know why. I don't think anyone else calibrates their TV's with this "cold" a picture.

To be fair, point 1. is just marketing whiffle. Point 2. and the final paragraph are equally true for other manufacturers (with the exception of the plasma "auto calibrator"). The Pixelworks chipset is part of the DSP I mentioned earlier - each TV has it's own and it can't be assumed that one is better than any other from a hardware point of view without digging in to the technical specifications. Other than that it is software - the algorithms used and how well they are implemented.

Again, I'm not knocking the BS3 processor, it's generating good pictures on some good TV's. I just wanted to point out that Visionclear is now primarily a collection of DSP software routines (with the exception of the contrast screen), some based on sensor inputs. Visionclear is B&O's term for these systems, other manufacturers will call theirs something else (X Reality Pro in the above example). B&O may well implement these things better than anyone else but it isn't a "given" and shouldn't be assumed without question.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

TripEnglish — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:47:43 GMT

This is true, but these are prefessional reviewers. Most people do not know how to access the correct menus let alone how to adjust the chromatic values, luminant values, and geometric values to achieve either a THX or ISF calibration. Bang & Olufsen televisions, on the other hand, are ISF calibrated from the factory (these values are printed on the back of BeoVision 4 panels for example and are entered into the BeoSystem 3 by the installing technician). To have an ISF representative perform the calibration in the field is around $1,200USD, so add that to the cost of whatever disposable television you buy.

As for the the picture competencies, I found my binder, but there are 11 pages of material on both the approach and the technology. I don't have a digital version, but maybe I could figure out my scanner at some point. Here are some of the basics:

1. We focus on the quality on the chain, which begins with the transmission or storage media and ends with the environmental conditions. Contrast this with other televisions that deal with their on-board hardware only.

2. We take an adaptive approach. There is measurement & analysis of incoming transmissions. This data is measured against an ideal set of values so different actions are taken on different parameters from frame to frame (for a very cool representation of this, ask your dealer to put their television in "dealer mode" and watch the graph of values change as the lights are changed in the room and different images are displayed on the television). Contrast this with a single set of algorythms universally applied.

3. We value viewing comfort and use viewing panels to measure how much of a given effect to use in "correcting" an image. As an anecdote, the thing that most people comment on when viewing a TV for the first time in my showroom is the smoothness of the motion. A percentage of people often don't like the effect as the smoothness can be interpreted as "too perfect" giving film the appearance of a video frame rate and changing the artistic character of the film. These folks are in the minority in my experience, but it shows that there's no such thing as an objectively perfect image standard.

And more specifically on the hardware, the BeoSystem 3 uses sensors built into the screens to measure ambient light for brightness & color temperature as well as, in the case of plasmas, the color values of the panel itself. It also puts the incoming signals through an analysis that measures for contrast, sharpness, native frame rate, transmission artifacts, etc. and then applies correction for display. This occurs across several modules in the chassis, one of which contains the Pixelworks chipset ("PW" in the SW suite).

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Puncher — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:08:41 GMT

TripEnglish:

Puncher, VisionClear has evolved from the days of analog processing, but is still a collection of technologies and hardware choices that, even individually, are not generally found in the competition. B&O considers even the choice of chem-treated front glass an element of VisionClear.

I think that there is information in the marketing materials about the elements of VisionClear and the technologies used to deal with these elements. It's always been a complaint of mine that we don't trumpet our technological advances where we make them and fall to easily into the "it's just the looks" argument.

I'll see if I can dig up the brochure or at least transcribe from our training binder.

For my personal testimonial, I've had B&O televisions for almost 10 years, the one thing about the images I couldn't live without is the natural color representation. I still have a 50" BeoVision 4 running on a BeoSystem 1 and I'd argue that in some respects the image is still better than the last 5 years of mass-market TVs have been able to deliver. Commodity brands seem to focus relentlessly on sharpness of detail and not smoothness of motion or natural colors. This makes a wiz-bang demo in the stores but it's fatiguing to view for even an hour. If there was something you could do to calibrate these televisions to make the image more natural, it would be fine, but there's not a lot you can do.

I'd be interested to hear about the hardware elements of Visionclear built into the BS3.

Most TV's can definitely be calibrated to a much better, more natural picture than the store setting, in fact most decent TV reviews will first calibrate the picture before even starting the review at all. A good starting point is normally the THX certified setting.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

TripEnglish — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:48:48 GMT

Puncher, VisionClear has evolved from the days of analog processing, but is still a collection of technologies and hardware choices that, even individually, are not generally found in the competition. B&O considers even the choice of chem-treated front glass an element of VisionClear.

I think that there is information in the marketing materials about the elements of VisionClear and the technologies used to deal with these elements. It's always been a complaint of mine that we don't trumpet our technological advances where we make them and fall to easily into the "it's just the looks" argument.

I'll see if I can dig up the brochure or at least transcribe from our training binder.

For my personal testimonial, I've had B&O televisions for almost 10 years, the one thing about the images I couldn't live without is the natural color representation. I still have a 50" BeoVision 4 running on a BeoSystem 1 and I'd argue that in some respects the image is still better than the last 5 years of mass-market TVs have been able to deliver. Commodity brands seem to focus relentlessly on sharpness of detail and not smoothness of motion or natural colors. This makes a wiz-bang demo in the stores but it's fatiguing to view for even an hour. If there was something you could do to calibrate these televisions to make the image more natural, it would be fine, but there's not a lot you can do.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Puncher — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:46:53 GMT

markiedee:

just to add also that the bv8-40 has visionclear processing, in there 2010 brochure it states that and i feel that it shows in the picture quality.

In analogue TV days Visionclear, as I understand it, was a collection of analogue hardware circuits and techniques, along with a contrast screen, that was used to improve the picture quality. Nowadays I believe that, apart from the contrast screen, it is reduced to a collection of DSP algorithms in the "picture engine" DSP. All digital TV's by necessity use DSP for similar processing and each manufacturer calls their own system some trade name or other - Sony's Bravia engine springs to mind, without going off to check what it and others are called today.

My point being that "Visionclear" today isn't necessarily something that others don't have (by another name), other than the contrast screen. How much better Visionclear really is than the others can only ever be judged by a side by side comparison on the same panel adjusted and calibrated to be as close as possible to some "ideal". This is never going to happen!

If it is better (and I hope it is) then fine, I have no issue. My point is that it shouldn't just be assumed.

One of B&O's plus points is the TV leaves the shop with a much better "setup" than most of the cheaper competition, however the picture quality and performance of most TV's can be improved considerably from their "delivered" condition by judicious adjustment of the menu settings. Of coure this shouldn't be necessary but then many folk don't even notice or even bother to adjust the settings!

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

hotknife — Sun, 04 Sep 2011 05:06:08 GMT

Hi guys,

just found the technological talk over the 8-40 and found it`s worth a update. I thought about to substitute my 100hz BV8-40 against some "new" stuff. I really like the design & picture quality of my 8-40 but you know, good is good, but better carries it. The BV8-40 is integrated into a setup of BL9 front-, BL4000 rear speakers. Because of my furniture, the only option is a BV7-40 with BL7.1. I do not care about 3D, so a latest 7-40 with 200hz would be a option.

For sure the picure of the 7-40 is better, because of the panel and processor of the BS3 and the BL7.1 is a killer against the integrated speaker of the 8-40. But is it that much better? Because of my front and rear speakers, the center does not have that much of work in comparison to a single BL7.1 without any other speakers.

Incl. the BL7.1 and a DVB-module, the BV7-40 200hz version is round 10k. The new BV11 is like reading tea leaves. And everybody knows, there is never the right day to buy consumer electonic. A view weeks later, you will be faced with a better version for less.

What about replacing the 100hz 8-40 for the 200hz, or wait for the new BV11? Or is there a new BV Apple ready beginning of 2012? Is there a LED 8-40 in the pipeline? Questions over questions. You know, if men have time and some money, it is not a very good combination. The only comparision between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Any suggestions?

Take care.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Chris — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:00:06 GMT

Thank you,

Having visited a local shop with the chance of comparing a 7-40 next to an 10-46 with the same program playing, i concluded that although the picture on the 10 was sharper, the overall image on the 7 was much more natural as was the colour. Everything seemed a little softer and in my opinion far more B&O like. Opinion changed and it just goes to prove that statistics and figures are like a lamp post to a drunken man....

More for leaning on, than illuminating!

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

mbee — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:38:35 GMT

chris : LED is just a backlighting technique, replacing fluorescent tubes by white LED doesn't improve the contrast in any way (and seeing the clouding issues on BV10, it seems that the slim light guides technology is not completely masterised by Samsung). Only active matrix of LEDs (as seen in the BV7 55) have a real impact on PQ (with new issues such as halos).

When you see LED backlit LCDs, you also are in front of the latest panel technology, that's where the real contrast improvements are.

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

Chris — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 04:35:50 GMT

LED LCD has a far better contrast ratio than any backlit Plasma/LCD screen.

If it didn't why would B&O have gone to all the work of using it in their latest 3 televisions?

7-55 LED, 10-40&10-46 both LED, doesn't make sense and the figures back this up. Are Phillips and Sony so wrong in stopping all backlit LCD screens with almost immediate effect?

Trust me whenever i visit one of our local stores i am amazed by the quality and image of the Beovison range, especially the 7-40 and 55 but i feel that LED is simply the maturing of what is now a fairly well established technology. And that is what stops me buying one at the moment. I know this can be applied to all parts of our lives which is probably why i blast round in a 13 year old Saab

Re: BV8-40 - pros and cons?

mbee — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 04:05:38 GMT

PS : I'm just in love with my BV8 40... Simply the best value for money on the B&O range, and a quite good value for money against a comparable Kikinoko set (screen+5.1 processor+central speaker).

What surprises me is that almost every people coming in my livingroom says "wow! beautiful design TV, must be a top brand, not a Samsung/Sony!" : it doesn't have to be full aluminium+glass to impress! (At first I was just not impressed by the design, and mainly bought in order to have outstanding picture and sound quality at a bargain, but finally I really like the way it's discrete, but different).