General Forum

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:57:05 GMT

Quick question, does the 8000 share output boards with the 6000?

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Dillen — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 03:37:13 GMT

Sadly, I don't have a board but I'm sure that there must quite a few BM8000's out there that
was given up for some reason, to donor a complete module.
I suggest you put an ad up in the wanted section.

Martin

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:35:57 GMT

I think the best thing to do is to replace the board. Do you have access to one, or know where to find one? My board is pretty darkened under the row of resistors. And, when I was replacing those resistors, several traces lifted on me, and I had to re-do the circuit connections.

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Dillen — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 13:27:24 GMT

Well, I suppose the transformer is good and strong then.

Replace all semiconductors on the board and on the cooling fin.
Check (or replace) all other components, even ceramic caps.
Do a continuity check on all PCB tracks.
If the board has serious dark spots from heat, it may have turned conductive and must be discarded.
When done, but before powering up, do some ohmic and semiconductor measurements
on strategic points to compare with the working channel.
Power up only using a variac with a current limiter and monitor the idle current from the moment power
is applied. If it runs astray pull the plug immediately.
As I told you initially in the first thread, this is not an easy thing to repair, there are no shortcuts.
The easiest and often cheapest method is to find a complete replacement module from
a donor machine, especially if you are not 100% into the soft clipping DC coupled complementary
output stages circuitry in this power range.
A full set of output transistors alone represents quite a cost and it usually doesn't stop there.

I've had some fireworks here too, you know.

Martin

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 10:39:08 GMT

The "blast" would have been pretty neat--except it was on my receiver!

I did not replace any of the semiconductors except the predrivers. They looked pretty badly scorched. I'm thinking now a diode might have failed into a dead short. Other than replacing the emitter resistors and TR209, what should I look at next? I'm going to re-measure the trim pot, but before I installed it I measured the old one (~65 ohms) and set the new one to match.

Jeff

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Dillen — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 06:50:15 GMT

Yes, it's like new years evening with the fireworks and sounds...
Reminds you what a very powerful beast this is.

Did you replace all semiconductors on the board ?

Did you get a chance to monitor the idle current ?
I never liked the multiturn trimmers, often you cannot tell if the setting is near the center
or towards one end. Did you check yours before powering up ?

Martin

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:41:23 GMT

Well, I got the parts today, and attacked the Startup Board first, putting the new resistors in. Now, I had previously removed the output transistors on the amp board that had blown up, and had disconnected power to that board. I powered the unit on, and it worked. 2 relay clicks, and 55V present.

Then, I put in the new transistors, and reconnected the amp board power wires. It powered on...

...and blew up.

The postmortem revealed that the emitter caps and TR209 physically blew apart. The other components visually look OK.

I disconnected the output board again, and the unit still powers up OK. I'm actually getting 52V across the main power rail, so I'm glad about that.

The output board is really frustrating me, though. The bias trim pot is a brand new, 10-turn 0-100 ohm Vishay. I'll have to replace those emitter resisors AGAIN, and go from there. Like I said, the output transistors are brand new, TIP142/147. They share a datasheet and are identically spec'd, except for Vce and Vcb, 100V vs. 80V for the TIP141/146.

Please stop me from throwing this machine through an up-opened window.

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Dillen — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 01:32:49 GMT

It's hard to get a resistance test right since the DC resistance will be very low even if working, but I suppose you
can compare the two secondary outputs.
An AC voltage test would be better.
Just lift off the leads to the rectifiers. You can check the rectifiers too then.

Martin

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:34:22 GMT

Can I do a resistance test on the transformer secondary?

Do I remove the leads going to the rectifier? What about the big lead going to the main filter caps?

Thanks!

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Dillen — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:34:53 GMT

OK, that indeed explains the missing startup.
I suggest you fix the startup board, disconnect the transformer secondary and power the transformer up normally
(through the resistors) while measureing AC on the secondary to see if there is a fault in the transformer.
It's a huge transformer, rated at 700W and it's a sturdy build but that doesn't mean it won't ever fail.
I've replaced two or three in my time and I seem to remember that the faults were all at the primary side and
a shorted primary will put a huge load on the power resistors, relays and fuse(s).

Martin

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 09:12:26 GMT

I have ordered more output transistors and power resistors. Next step will be installing those sometime later this week, or this coming weekend. Then I hold my breath and switch it on again...

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:25:14 GMT

Well, I figured out a couple important things:

1. The circuit does not match the schematic. The circuit diagram shows the two 5.6 ohm resistors in series, for 11.2 ohms total. The circuit board itself has the resistors in parallel, for total resistance of 2.8 ohms. This appears to be from the factory, but I don't know for sure.

2. The brand-new 5.6 ohm resistors are toast, totally open. This explains why the second relay was failing to close, and why there was no power to the transformer. But the question is why the resistors failed--would they have been killed by being in parallel, and not series?

UPDATE: I just saw the alternate schematic for type 1903. The circuit does indeed match, as the resistors are paralleled. But what happened? The original power resistors both failed open, as did the replacements. But the fuse did not blow---what is happening?

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:11:51 GMT

Excellent explanation! That's exactly the information I was looking for.

Thank you Martin, you're a great help!

Re: Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Dillen — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 03:57:09 GMT

The soft-startup sequence is this:
- You choose a source on the front panel.
- A command to power up the amplifiers are sent from the processor.
- Relay RL2 is energized (from the low voltage power supply).
This initiates current flow to the large transformer, but through the two power
resistors so as not to burn the fuse in your house mains because of the very
low DC resistance of the tranformer primary when not induced.
It's still enough to provide some voltage on the secondary and to power and
trigger the delay circuit for RL1.
- So shortly after RL2 is energized, so is RL1, shorting out the two
power resistors, bringing full mains to the (now induced) transformer
which again will bring full voltage to the amplifiers.

If RL2 is energized but you have no secondary voltage check the condition of :
- RL2 contacts (double check this, these relays live a hard life)
- both resistors
- all connections between relays, resistors and fuses.
- large transformer primary winding

You can isolate the transformer secondary from the rest of the circuit
to make sure that no secondary things (the amplifiers) are causing problems
at this point.

Martin

Delayed Relay Circuit (startup board, BM8000)

Jeff Hoyt — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 23:12:41 GMT

I'm trying to troubleshoot the Delayed Relay circuit in my Beomaster 8000. Looking at the schematic, it appears that the trigger comes from the secondary windings of the large transformer. But how is the relay R1 to be energized, if the transformer is downstream from R1? It also looks like current can flow around R1, through the two 5.6 ohm power resistors. Is this right?

In my BM8000, R2 is closing fine, as it should. But R1 does not close, at all. There is no trigger voltage present.

Thanks for the help and advice, I REALLY want to be able to use this receiver, not turn it into a doorstop!