General Forum

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

marrow999 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:56:57 GMT

Hi Jeddy

Just to ensure that no stone is left unturned......

I too have been querying this whole rgb/cvbs issue. I recently had to replace my BV4 after builders smashed it(!!) - the "new" preowned screen was definitely an improvement on the old from a picture quality perspective. However, I have a Beomedia (oh dear!) so needed the VGA input on the beosystem2 that drives the monitor. That meant "upgrading" the beosystem 2 to the mkIII version.

Beomedia is now much better thanks to VGA input (still rubbish really as the s/w is pants, previous scart/phono converter was a joke), but the picture quality from my Sky box is not as good. The txt on the Sky menus is dire. To me this seems to be a weakness in the beosystem - at some stage I may have the chance to swap to an alternative boesystem2 and will let you know my findings......

Troubleshooting like this is so often the unexpected so I thought I'd add my 2penneth!

Keep us in the picture!

Mark

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Jeddy — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:49:04 GMT

Hi Keith,

I've had the set for nearly a year now and it has always been like this (I've been trying to find out on and off what the problem is since then).

This sounds expensive - I wonder if this is why such a new set was passed on!!! I think I may have been done.

I'm not having a lot of luck with TVs these days, the main reason I went for a B&O is because I've had two pre-owned ones in the past which lasted years with faultless service and after the Loewe failed so soon.

Thanks,
Jeddy

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Keith Saunders — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:00:44 GMT

Jeddy,

Based on your picture and description, you certainly have a problem with your BeoVision 3.

This problem is nothing to do with 100Hz or RGB and in my view this is a fault with the TV.

Has this problem existed ever since you owned the BeoVision 3 or if not, how long has it existed ?

This problem is almost certainly going to require a dealer to change the micro-processor board which is the main board in the TV.

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Jeddy — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:32:37 GMT

Right here is a picture from todays weather... (it was taken at 1/60 so there should only be 1 frame (2 at most) here).

have a look at

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/jezzastone/BOPicture1/photo#5080439040253933282

I'm having trouble inserting the picture inline.

As you can see, subsequent frames seem to be separated by half a characters width - e.g. the S in Southampton.

It took the S approx 4 seconds to go from right to left (66cm) and the S is 0.8cm wide itself. So at 25fps that is less then .66mm per frame it should be moving. So why do I have 2 adjacent frames (even superimposed frames) 4mm apart?

Although I can't prove it with a picture, it also looks like the frames really are superimposed on each other rather than coming one after the other. Surely 100Hz may be interpolating the frames, but duplicating them??

The picture is actually not a bad representation of what I see, i.e. you really can't tell it is Southampton withouth knowing it.

Help please.

Thanks,

Jeddy

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

The Stig - ver. 1.7 — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:14:44 GMT

find format in list and press go it tells you what format its in

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Jeddy — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:57:45 GMT

Cheers again guys, I will try and get that photo.

The problem isn't realted to channel (that I am aware of) so much as program - I've had problems on BBC1 / ITV (which I'd expect to get as much bandwidth as any those being the main 2 TV channels in the UK) as well as on terrestrial analogue (I think, but need to confirm).

I've been trying to work out for a while a common element to the problem, it isn't channel or, source,

One other theory I had (but not managed to prove yet) is whether it could be a problem relating to aspect ratio - e.g. if my STB is set to 16:9 and the program is broadcast in 4:3 and the Bv3 is showing in 15:9 (? it's a sort of zoomed in 4:3) it would have to take a certain number of pixels of width and put them in more pixels when it displays in 15:9 which I can imagine being a problem.

Maybe when a program is broadcast in 16:9 and I watch it so I have no problem?

The problem with this theory is it is difficult to know how a program is broadcast and so to prove it.

Jeddy

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

The Stig - ver. 1.7 — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 16:16:30 GMT

Yes you problem whit text left to right is related to the feature box, thats handles 100 Hz but is not a fault.

your TV works as it shout...

the problem whit chancing quality between the channels, comes down to what the TV channel pays for the transmission. Film channels like canal plus (or sky movie or whats it called in the UK) has a hi bit rate and low compression = good quality. Channels like BBC World has a low bit rate and hi compression = poor quality. And lots of channels lies in between, some with OK some with poor quality, the picture on the screen is only as good as the feed to it.

best regards

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Keith Saunders — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:28:22 GMT

Jeddy,

Lets start with the age of your BeoVision 3-32 it is actually a Mark III which was introduced in July 2003 and last sold in 2006, so a fairly new TV and your software is quite up to date as well. The latest version is 15.3

You talk about two superimposed pictures on parts of the screen where there is movement and whilst I understand Beobuddy's comments about 100Hz, what you are describing seems something different. I think you are correct we need a picture.

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Jeddy — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:16:05 GMT

thanks guys,

To answer the questions

I'm not sure how old the set is tbh - it's 'pre-owned'.

Its a type 8813

s/w version 13 according to the sticker on the back and the monitor information on the menu.

I take the point about 100Hz, however don't think this should explain the problem - my previous set (a Loewe Acconda until the tube went bang after only 5 yrs) was also 100Hz and much better in this respect. I also don't think it explains why some programs are bad and others fine with similar material. Going back to 50Hz also isn't an option, I'm one of those who find the flickering too bad on those sets. If the problem is the videoprocessor is it just that the one in the Bv3 is poor compared to other makes (I'd hope not, the set may be 'pre-owned' but it still cost a lot more than a new one from a mainstream manufacturer would have cost.

I think I know what you mean by a live teletext picture, but haven't seen this that I can recall on this set.

I'll see if I can get a picture of how bad it looks, sometimes it really does look like two superimposed pictures on parts of the screen where the movement is.

Jeddy

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Beobuddy — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:49:19 GMT

Jeddy:

The problem I'm trying to fix is again particularly noticable with text, but also other things (most noticibly with sharp edges) but only on some programs. Those of you in the UK will no doubt have seen the new weather that one of the channels is doing where they fly over a map of the country which has place names on it - depending on how fast they move you sometimes can barely read the place names because they are so jumpy, and yet when the slow down slightly it is really clear and smooth.I have tried the Movie mode, however this has as many problems as it tries to fix in my mind and I'm sure that without this the text etc. shouldn't be as jumpy as it is. The problem is only ever with things moving left - right or right to left - up and down is fine (you can see this from credits at the end of programs, those going right to left jump between being legible and not - while those going bottom to top are always fine. Sometimes the right to left credits are unreadable and after 5 seconds suddenly become smooth and then go back to jumpy again. If it was just credits I could live with it, but in some programs it is very noticable (e.g. The Apprentice) - it is almost like 10fps instead of 25fps when stuff is moving fast across the screen. Could this be the problem, the set can't cope with so much motion??! Surely not.

Jeddy

Hi Jeddy,

You're a nice person. I'm just a guy who thinks about the problems from other persons like you. And it ends like this

You only discovered the dis-advantage of a 100hz tellie !

I do have the same. We all do.

If you watch the same program on a 50 hz you will see that they don't have this "problem".

You can also notice this problem when you're watching the end of a program when there is a kind of subtitle scrolling from the right to the left. That does not always go smoothly.

This is problem is caused by the videoprocessor. It calculates a picture between 2 original ones.

Have you ever seen a kind of live broadcast of a telext page which scrolls from the bottom to the top to view the next page?

You can't read the text at all. The late models, like the BV3 and the RF Avants are much better then the early models. But it is still noticable.

Uwatchable picture on BeoVision 3-32

Keith Saunders — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:42:30 GMT

Well Jeddy, I am pleased you cleared up the situation with RGB, some of us were pulling our hair out trying to understand the problem.

Your EEPROM 043 is not the software version, but the new issue you have raised could be a software issue.

Perhaps you could answer the following questions to allow us to determine the situation

How old is your is your BeoVision 3-32 ?
Is it a Mark I (Type 880X) or a Mark II (Type 881X) you can find the type number on the back of the set ?
Also on the back of the set should be a very small stick-on label with the software version # on it.

If that fails you can go into the service menu and look under "Monitor" and you will see something like the following except the picture is of a Mark II AVANT. Notice here the system software version is 8.5

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Jeddy — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:48:15 GMT

What are you looking for in the picture to se if it’s RGB or CVBS that’s on ?

If you go into the service menu, Monitor, Picture adjustment, Colour adjust, it (presumably) tells you what it is using (CVBS 043), I can also flip to the other setting RGB 064 which does change the picture.If you go into e.g. the program guide on the STB (loads of text - thanks for that tip) and look closely, under CVBS all the text looks like it has ghosting - if you flip to RGB this goes away.

This is where it gets slightly embarassing I had assumed that since every time I went into this option it showed CVBS that is what the picture I was normally getting was. However while writing this and looking closely at the set what seems to happen is that when you go into this option the picture is indeed CVBS, however when I come back out if resorts to RGB so I may be getting RGB all the time.

However all is not well so please bear with me. The reason I ended up here is because I all to often find the picture unwatchable so I ended up trying to change service menu settings (yes, I know the risks and have tried to minimise this by making a note of the original settings, which is fine so long as I can see a picture to restore them to those values) and RGB was one I was hoping would fix my problem.

The problem I'm trying to fix is again particularly noticable with text, but also other things (most noticibly with sharp edges) but only on some programs. Those of you in the UK will no doubt have seen the new weather that one of the channels is doing where they fly over a map of the country which has place names on it - depending on how fast they move you sometimes can barely read the place names because they are so jumpy, and yet when the slow down slightly it is really clear and smooth.I have tried the Movie mode, however this has as many problems as it tries to fix in my mind and I'm sure that without this the text etc. shouldn't be as jumpy as it is. The problem is only ever with things moving left - right or right to left - up and down is fine (you can see this from credits at the end of programs, those going right to left jump between being legible and not - while those going bottom to top are always fine. Sometimes the right to left credits are unreadable and after 5 seconds suddenly become smooth and then go back to jumpy again. If it was just credits I could live with it, but in some programs it is very noticable (e.g. The Apprentice) - it is almost like 10fps instead of 25fps when stuff is moving fast across the screen. Could this be the problem, the set can't cope with so much motion??! Surely not.

I normally only watch through the STB / Tivo, but it appears that the problem exists on TV from the inbuilt tuner (ok, it appears RGB was a red herring, I wish this had occurred to me before). It is also harder to work out what is going on from here as it's obviously only live so you have to wait for a particular program to have the problem.

Maybe this has been fixed in a later s/w version? Mine has EEPROM ver 043

I do hope someone can shed some light on this problem otherwise this set has been a very expensive mistake which has to go...

Many apologies for the RGB confusion and thanks so far...

Jeddy

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Keith Saunders — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 02:43:43 GMT

With regard to the Sync'ing of the picture with RGB, the sync signal can be seperate, appear with the blue lead or as with VGA have two seperate Hsync & Vsync signals along with the RGB, that is why it can often be difficult to fully understand the causes of RGB problems. In the case of most set-top boxes RGB and CVBS are provided together and that is certainly what your BeoVision 3 is expecting.

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Beobuddy — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 02:30:15 GMT

Keith Saunders:

Jeddy,
Based on your feedback it seems that the BeoVision IS receiving RGB from your STB, the picture will not be viewable because of the lack of sync pulses as others have pointed out, but in your answer you do state that you DO get a picture, albeit rolling etc, so cutting pin 19 & 20 has proved that.
So, we can now be sure that the STB is sending RGB and the BeoVision 3 is processing it and can display it.
However, when CVBS is present it appears to default to that rather than RGB regardless of settings.
So, my conclusion based on the information you have provided to date is that your cabling (subject to you re-soldering pins 19 & 20) and your STB's are fine and the problem relates to the Beovision itself its software or setup.

I agree with Keith's thinking. It becomes a bit more logical.

A small aspect about the RGB. For a year ago I made a cable myself to provide a beamer with RGB.

Only the 3 leads RGB and the each ground were used and fed into the VGA connector of the beamer. I had a clear no scrolling picture. So I concluded that only RGB would be enough if there is a sync in one of them.

So I was also thinking that because there is a sync in the composite signal and there isn't one in the RGB signal, the BV3 switches back to the composite signal. Or I am I totally wrong?

Till now I was assuming that RGB doesn't need an extra accompying (wrong spelling?) signal to synchronice the video.

Maybe an idea is to look for an update for the Inverto. maybe it helps?

I own an Avant 32, which has the same chassis I think, and I will try later today if I can "create"the same problem by using an external DVD player or the STB (Topfield).

Re: RGB vs. CVBS

Beobuddy — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 02:30:11 GMT

Keith Saunders:

Jeddy,
Based on your feedback it seems that the BeoVision IS receiving RGB from your STB, the picture will not be viewable because of the lack of sync pulses as others have pointed out, but in your answer you do state that you DO get a picture, albeit rolling etc, so cutting pin 19 & 20 has proved that.
So, we can now be sure that the STB is sending RGB and the BeoVision 3 is processing it and can display it.
However, when CVBS is present it appears to default to that rather than RGB regardless of settings.
So, my conclusion based on the information you have provided to date is that your cabling (subject to you re-soldering pins 19 & 20) and your STB's are fine and the problem relates to the Beovision itself its software or setup.

I agree with Keith's thinking. It becomes a bit more logical.

A small aspect about the RGB. For a year ago I made a cable myself to provide a beamer with RGB.

So I was also thinking that because there is a sync in the composite signal and there isn't one in the RGB signal, the BV3 switches back to the composite signal. Or I am I totally wrong?

Till now I was assuming that RGB doesn't need an extra accompying (wrong spelling?) signal to synchronice the video.

Maybe an idea is to look for an update for the Inverto. maybe it helps?

I own an Avant 32, which has the same chassis I think, and I will try later today if I can "create"the same problem by using an external DVD player or the STB (Topfield).