General Forum

Re: Upgrade?

Chasepoes — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:15:47 GMT

I don't know about re-manufactered midrange-units. In The Netherlands, the midrange-units can be had new from B&O and cost €32,- a piece (price of last month), that's about 45 US Dollars. The replacemnt of the foam surrounds is fairly easy to do and rather cheap. I now refoamed 4 Penta's myself (so 16 drivers in all). Materialcosts for 8 drivers is somewhat shy of 40 Euro (55 US Dollar). Foam-surrounds can be found on E-bay and at various websites.

Re: Upgrade?

cooldude — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:47:12 GMT

When I recapped my penta's, a couple of years ago, it did show a definate clearing up in the midranges.
Most B&O drivers are rather specific and very hard to replace with generic ones

Re: Upgrade?

EYEdROP — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:37:34 GMT

I browsed through the german thread linked earlier. Im supposed to replace:

C1 = 4.7 uf,

C2 = 4.7 uf

C5 = 2.2 uf

C25 = 10uF

IC2 = LF353

correct?

Im not interested in modifying the sound at all, and I intend on keeping original capacitor values. I just want them to sound like new again. Will the new caps clear up the midrange at all? Does anyone know what re-manufacturer B&O is going through for the 8 midrange replacements, or where to get them besides B&O? Also, is it true there are fake midranges for them?

Re: Upgrade?

tournedos — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:29:18 GMT

You can pay all you want for various "high-end" caps, but I never was a believer in that magic... I used basic Intertechnik/Audyn MKT caps and I think the final parts list for my passive Pentas was a little over 100 euros. You can get by much cheaper with regular bipolar electrolytics (like the originals) but then you'll need to do it again in 15-20 years

The active Pentas have room for other improvements as well in the amplifier section. I'll let somebody else talk about them.

Re: Upgrade?

EYEdROP — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:24:25 GMT

Alex:

Well I won't say 'never', but at present, there isn't really anything which'll consistently outperform them in all areas untill you start spending that amount...

EYEdROP:

You mean like upgrading to icepower?

Also, my receiver is an older 2 channel 100w yamaha. I am running my Pentas through the pre-out. Im almost certain the L/R channel volume isnt matched. I have a macbook pro which has spdif. I was thinking of buying a modern receiver with optical inputs. Will this solve my channel balance problem?

I'm not really convinced that 'upgrading' to ICEPower is the way to make Pentas sound better, or indeed any other speaker. ICEPower does sound very good, but only once you've implemented it correctly, and this is very difficult to do. Many mainstream electronics companies can't do it, so I have serious doubts that DIYers can do it too.

A good (very) powerful amplifier will do the trick. It's maybe worth looking on ebay or similar to see if you can get hold of a good quality powerful amplifier. Don't worry about an S/PDIF input, all that does is allow you to use the DAC built into the amplifier instead of the one in your MacBook Pro. I'd get a good quality external DAC instead - the ones built into most surround sound receivers aren't that good. I've just been given an old BBC (Sonic Solutions) DAC/ADC, and it sounds stunningly good - better than my CD7000 which is saying something.

How will a good amplifier do the trick when these are active? Arent the built in amps designed for the specific drivers?

Re: Upgrade?

EYEdROP — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:19:40 GMT

How much would it cost to get my Pentas recapped? I would do it myself, but Im not too good with soldering or anything like that. They are the active pentas.

Re: Upgrade?

tournedos — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:17:03 GMT

Welcome to the forum, Chasepoes!

You are not alone, the "muffled" high end of the unmodified Pentas has been discussed a number of times. Actually, that mod of yours is suggested in this thread (starts in German, but ends in English) among other improvements.

I believe it is a matter of taste if you like this additional treble or not - but I found the biggest improvement was when I replaced/upgraded all the caps on the crossovers with foil types (MKT). All the passive Pentas are so old now that the caps don't work up to spec anymore, and they weren't of the best quality to begin with.

Re: Upgrade?

Chasepoes — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:10:05 GMT

I'm going out on a limb here as a new forum member.

I own 4 passive Penta's now. When I bought my first pair (second-hand) I was impreesed by the sound they produce. They've got a big soundstage and sound huge. But after longer listening I found them to be lacking in transparancy and timbre. After finding the specs of these speakers, iI found out that they only reach 20KHz at a -8 dB point. I took them to a speakershop and had them measured, and indeed the high's are tempered, and the bass is a bit boosted (40HZ measured in at +2 dB). That explains their huge sound. But i wanted them to be more precise, more neutral. To achieve this I examined the filter used in the Penta's, and after some calculations and experiments have found a very easy (and reversable!) way to make the Penta's sound more brilliant, sparkling, more balanced in frequency so to speak.

Inside the Penta's at the bottom, there are two PCB's containing the filter. One PCB is labeled No. 14 and the other No. 15. If you short circuit R3 on the PCB No.14 the tweeter in the Penta is no longer held back and the overall sound of the Penta's clears up! They sound much more neutral and livelier.

It's an easy and cheap way to influence the sound of the Penta and best of al. if you don't like the sound, remove the short-circuit and all is as it was.

Just wanted to share this with you

Re: Upgrade?

Alex — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 02:17:03 GMT

Well I won't say 'never', but at present, there isn't really anything which'll consistently outperform them in all areas untill you start spending that amount...

EYEdROP:

You mean like upgrading to icepower?

Also, my receiver is an older 2 channel 100w yamaha. I am running my Pentas through the pre-out. Im almost certain the L/R channel volume isnt matched. I have a macbook pro which has spdif. I was thinking of buying a modern receiver with optical inputs. Will this solve my channel balance problem?

I'm not really convinced that 'upgrading' to ICEPower is the way to make Pentas sound better, or indeed any other speaker. ICEPower does sound very good, but only once you've implemented it correctly, and this is very difficult to do. Many mainstream electronics companies can't do it, so I have serious doubts that DIYers can do it too.

A good (very) powerful amplifier will do the trick. It's maybe worth looking on ebay or similar to see if you can get hold of a good quality powerful amplifier. Don't worry about an S/PDIF input, all that does is allow you to use the DAC built into the amplifier instead of the one in your MacBook Pro. I'd get a good quality external DAC instead - the ones built into most surround sound receivers aren't that good. I've just been given an old BBC (Sonic Solutions) DAC/ADC, and it sounds stunningly good - better than my CD7000 which is saying something.

Re: Upgrade?

Dave — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:43:56 GMT

Alex:

No. Nothing will solidly/consistently outperform the Pentas at that cost. For Maybe ~$4k (not knowing the exact pricing of good hifi in the USA at present) you'll find something which will consistently sound better, but the Penta is still a very good speaker, even if it does occasionally show it's age with certain recordings.

Well, never say never. There are alot of speakers out there, and lets not discount second hand gear that isn't produced any longer. I'm sure a pair of M100's and a BM8000 could out do a per of pentas...

Re: Upgrade?

EYEdROP — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:06:17 GMT

You mean like upgrading to icepower?

Also, my receiver is an older 2 channel 100w yamaha. I am running my Pentas through the pre-out. Im almost certain the L/R channel volume isnt matched. I have a macbook pro which has spdif. I was thinking of buying a modern receiver with optical inputs. Will this solve my channel balance problem?

Re: Upgrade?

Alex — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:22 GMT

No. Nothing will solidly/consistently outperform the Pentas at that cost. For Maybe ~$4k (not knowing the exact pricing of good hifi in the USA at present) you'll find something which will consistently sound better, but the Penta is still a very good speaker, even if it does occasionally show it's age with certain recordings.

If you want a speaker which will give you everything the Penta doesn't, then look at a small bookshelf. B&W's latest 600 series is pretty special for the price. In no way better or even comparable to the Penta, but they sound snappy, detailed and up-front, unlike the Penta.

However, the Penta sounds large, quite dramatic and can certainly reproduce large dynamic contrasts correctly. You really need to start spending quite serious money to get those attributes.

Stick with the Pentas, and possibly look at upgrading your amplifier/s if you're finding they don't quite give you everything you want. A good amp can really tighten them up.

Re: Upgrade?

Kokomo — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:58:11 GMT

Again, different taste. But its safe to say that in the end, Pentas gave a more accurate rendition of the recording. MOST ears would agree.

I have to pose the question, how do you know? Unless you were there to hear the original performance you cannot judge its 'accuracy'. All you can do is make a subjective assumption that what you are listening to may be an accurate reproduction.

This is in no way a criticism, just a statement of fact. What you are doing is listening to the reporduced sound and making an assumption based primarily upon the fact that it pleases your ears and in your opinion must be a truthful representation. But it may not be!

Someone else might listen and hear something entirely different as no two people hear exactly the same as each other.

Re: Upgrade?

EYEdROP — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:04:53 GMT

Of course its all taste. Ive owned Klipsch, JBL, Velodyne, etc.. I understand they all offer different advantages. But one always outperformed another overall in the combonation of speed, detail, accuracy, soundstage, etc.... I think the main thing all audiophiles look for is low-level detail, tonal transparency, and a faithful reproduction of the original recording. With my Pentas, I am able to hear detail quite well because the imaging is so precise, but they actually lack SLIGHTLY in timbre and transparency compared to my Velodyne I had (which was a bookshelf speaker). But overall, my Pentas are best because they are still provide decent in speed and tonal quality, with the added benifit of great soundstage and imaging. Again, different taste. But its safe to say that in the end, Pentas gave a more accurate rendition of the recording. MOST ears would agree.

All Id like to know is this: Is it safe to say there are speakers that will SOLIDLY outperform the Pentas in OVERALL sound at ~$2000 msrp?

Re: Upgrade?

Kokomo — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 03:12:45 GMT

EYEdROP:

Hey everyone. Let me make this clear: I am an audiophile. All I care about is the sound. If my pentas were girly, pink, and fluffy, I wouldn't hesitate to listen. So far I still havent heard anything better than my Pentas. The amazing room filling power response, imaging, and balanced sound tickle my ears all the time. But Ive been looking around the used market lately and been seeing some very good deals. Most people say B&O is not good for price to performance ratio, and that is true in many cases. But its also preference. I love the B&O sound, but im curious about some of the real high end audiophile stuff. I mean, these Pentas were a flagship model and sound quite good. But you also have the really esoteric, over engineered audiophile stuff, which Ive been seeing alot of for good prices. Regarding the law of diminishing returns, exactly how much better can sound get than these Pentas? Are there really audiophile speakers that can spank the Penta for half the MSRP?

Recommending speakers is like recommending cars. What suits me wouldn't please someone else. There is no standard by which a 'good sounding' speaker can be defined. Yes they can be tested and their performance measured technically, but in the end it's the ears that are the judge.

Many, many years ago before I got into B&O, I was an enthusiast of so-called audophile equipment and the pursuit of the 'perfect' sound. I auditioned many high-end speakers and the one thing that they all had in common was that they all reproduced the source material differently! You put on a selection of your albums, listened to them through the range of speakers you were auditioning and in the end chose the ones you liked the best. A subjective decision.

A potential problem though! The chosen speakers were getting their sound source from a turntable, arm & cartridge or CD player which were more than likely different to the one at home. Change these and the resultant sound from the speakers changed also!

So what I and many others did was take my equipment, CDs & records to the store and have the dealer use these. Not all dealers would be willing to accomodate this however.

Another feature of speakers (and arguably electronics) is that their sound changes after a 'run-in' period. Therefore, the way they sounded when they were originally auditioned is not how they will sound after 6 months of use.

Change your amplifier and/or CD player and the sound changes yet again.

On the subject of amplifiers, I recall buying this very expensive one after reading reviews that it was superb. No bass & treble controls. I was told these were 'not necessary and can and will only degrade the output signal'. Ok I thought, that's the one for me then.

After one month, the absence of tone adjustment was driving me mad, so I traded it in.

In the end whatever you read or are told by experts, just make up your own mind!