General Forum

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

cooldude — Wed, 27 May 2009 10:03:06 GMT

TripEnglish:

Moxxey, that's really the point that I was making. For all the pared down simplicity of much of the range, the BeoSystem 3 took the kitchen sink approach and has nearly a dozen features on board that 2/3s or better will never use, yet pay for each and every time. I've been arguing since the BeoSystem 3 was launched that there should be a standalone surround sound processor with a PUC that supports every major screen's geometry & IR codes. The PUC is terrific and it would make the perfect platform to add our speakers. Screens are the most commoditized at this point and it looks like it will be that way for some time so if someone really feels the need to keep current, they should have a reasonable option to do so.

However, my comment about it being the best value figures mostly into my market, which is one of a handful worldwide that moves the type of systems that the BeoSystem 3 shines in. When you do add the projector, link multiple BeoVisions, add the ML Gateway to control lights & automation, and round out to 5.1 or 7.1, the BeoSystem 3 is genuinely a less expensive product than other processors with all the 3rd party boxes added in.

So I agree that the in most cases we're selling a motor home to people who just want a car!

So true TripEnglish... if they ever bring out a reduced Beosystem3 at a reasonable price (it never will be cheap, but I still would pay the premium ...) I would camp outside the store to be the first one to buy it .... I just want something with a puc that controls my B&O and non B&O gear and where all my speakers are connected to for surround sound.....

This would satisfy alot of people .......guaranteed.

I still have an av7000 in use (though the puc part has been modded with a lintronics box that gives me full controll over my non B&O tv, blu ray player and mac mini....) Works great for me and still sounds better in regular dolby prologic than many of my friends ht setups I have heard.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

TripEnglish — Wed, 27 May 2009 09:16:13 GMT

Moxxey, that's really the point that I was making. For all the pared down simplicity of much of the range, the BeoSystem 3 took the kitchen sink approach and has nearly a dozen features on board that 2/3s or better will never use, yet pay for each and every time. I've been arguing since the BeoSystem 3 was launched that there should be a standalone surround sound processor with a PUC that supports every major screen's geometry & IR codes. The PUC is terrific and it would make the perfect platform to add our speakers. Screens are the most commoditized at this point and it looks like it will be that way for some time so if someone really feels the need to keep current, they should have a reasonable option to do so.

However, my comment about it being the best value figures mostly into my market, which is one of a handful worldwide that moves the type of systems that the BeoSystem 3 shines in. When you do add the projector, link multiple BeoVisions, add the ML Gateway to control lights & automation, and round out to 5.1 or 7.1, the BeoSystem 3 is genuinely a less expensive product than other processors with all the 3rd party boxes added in.

So I agree that the in most cases we're selling a motor home to people who just want a car!

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

moxxey — Wed, 27 May 2009 03:31:21 GMT

TripEnglish:

I still maintain that a BeoSystem 3 based system offers the best value in the industry

I agree with most of what you say Trip - and you're a credit to the board - but that's dealer speak. Just because B&O attach a price of £5K+ to the BS3, it doesn't mean that TVs that include the device are 'best value'. ie. you've got to ask whether the device is really worth £5K? I suppose if you used a projector and had a 7.1 setup, perhaps, but then the latest BV7-40 MKIV, with BS3, doesn't support HD 7.1 audio, so anyone who has bought in to a high-end audio setup is going to have to 'downgrade' their audio performance to accomodate these issues.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

vikinger — Wed, 27 May 2009 03:29:54 GMT

Interesting views from TripEnglish! I noticed on a visit to RicherSounds that they are now offering house networked systems but at a phenomenal price relative to their cut-price end-of-range TVs and Hi Fi separates. On the question of David Lewis and designs mentioned by Flappo, my own view is that the CRT televisions were masterpieces of disguise, looking good and creating the illusion of a slim case from most viewing positions. The Plasma and LCD televisions have for the most part removed the need for this skillful design and we have finished up with bits being stuck on which add nothing to the appearance (and technical performance?)

Technical developments are accelerating and B&O have a real dilemma: do they stick to waiting 12 months to see which new technologies are becoming accepted or do they accept that technology is now moving so fast that need better case design with the ability to change to new innards more rapidly. In one way the move to solid state technologies should give B&O an almost totally free hand in how it makes its products look and feel. It a bit like an architect who was limited by what the engineers could do from a structural viewpoint. Suddenly the form of what is being made no longer relates in anyway to the engineering within (with the exception of needing a viewing screen on a TV!) This suggests to me that there should be no need for compromise on either the technical or appearance fronts in future, and if B&O can find the investment capital they can still survive in a connoisseur market. Failing that they will have to tie up more with a mass producer of well perceived technological equipment- the current resurrected rising star being Apple.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

TripEnglish — Tue, 26 May 2009 21:24:22 GMT

I have a lot of sympathy for the point of view that our televisions fail to measure up in some fundamental way or that somehow their performance is out of proportion with their price tag. And, though I disagree fundamentally, I was struck by a comment made by Sony's CEO: "We can no longer say that our customers are wrong and we are right."

I think that there has been a similar realization in Struer since Kalle took over. There are innovations coming through (a few of which I've gotten to toy with!) that bear exclusively on capabilities that either don't really exist in the industry, or have been isolated to even more exclusive brands than ourselves. It's impossible to believe that these would ever have seen the light of day under TBS. We'd probably be co-branding laptops with Dell if he were still around!

I still maintain that a BeoSystem 3 based system offers the best value in the industry, but I can also see how someone who just wants to hang a TV on a wall and enjoy some great sound is paying for more than he will use. I've seen both sides from different stores in different markets. For years I dealt with clients who, if they would even spring for the BeoVision 7, would seldom add speakers or even link it. Today I serve a market where I rarely install a system that doesn't have lighting & environmental control, surveillance, and some sort of entryway management. I wouldn't get a fraction of those jobs if our core architecture didn't allow me to offer systems that performed much of what Crestron does with a fraction of the equipment and programming. In this market I underbid companies providing LG panels and in-wall speakers. Imagine that! BeoVision 7s and 8s everywhere with control of lights, garage doors, security system, surveillance, t-stat, and I'm the lowest price! That's where our value really comes in, when you link up a house.

Since both markets are equally valid and equally profitable it makes sense that we're pushing forward at both levels. The BeoVision 10 is going to be a revolution. I've finally seen it and all of those who lust after a BeoVision 5 will be thrilled. Let's say that looks skip a generation! Then we're also pushing our custom integration & automation capabilities at the top end so that I can be more competitive in my market while my colleagues in other markets can be more competitive in theirs.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 26 May 2009 14:54:53 GMT

goodbye and good riddance

he was never worth a smidgen compared to jj's best work

the avant was his highpoint and it was downhill from that

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

mobeyone — Tue, 26 May 2009 14:13:53 GMT

Has been mentioned before, and I think that B&O are looking at alternatives especially now that they have started to commemerate certains icons of the lewis era by casting them in gold or introducing limited editions, nice way to say goodbye to someone isn't it?

I have a feeling that Zaha Hadid maybe amongst the contenders. Anyone see the last newsletter? With the gold B&O? All placed in a ultra modern building designed by Ms Hadid... maybe a sign of things to come?

As for the original post... Telegraph is nothing more than a rag of a newspaper... but me personally, I think neither, and probably someone who wants more of a compromise. Someone who wants the best of all worlds so to speak and is willing to settle for something which may look the best but does not perform the best but offers the best in terms of asthetics, craftsmanship, reliability (?) and connectivity to exisitng products.

I would have added longevity but that would seem a little risque with the current obsession for the next best thing for the tecno geeks..... but I find it very satisfying that I am still able to use a pair of speakers that are near 20 years old with the current line up of products.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 26 May 2009 14:09:07 GMT

maybe jj feels a bit upset , jolted , even ****ed off by the way bno treated him after all those years and just can't be bothered any more

he has nothing more to prove

if you think you could design anything even approaching his 70's classics , do tell

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

Peter — Tue, 26 May 2009 13:00:32 GMT

Completely agree. I have no problem with the David Lewis designs but I feel the time has come for a fresh view and someone interested in the digital age. I don't want to look back - I can buy old B&O for that.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

Mr10Percent — Tue, 26 May 2009 10:39:45 GMT

Flappo The Grate:

personally , i think we need a new designer. david lewis has said many times how much he hates computers , this is proven by the products he designs , there's no acceptance of the digital future

i'm sure that if jacob jensen was still in charge we'd have NO complaints , his best products were always ahead of their time , some of them still look from the year 3000 !

Looking at what JJ has brought out since leaving, I'm certain there would be no B&O at all to complain about. He really has not moved on at all imho.

10%

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

bsantini — Tue, 26 May 2009 06:15:11 GMT

Like fans of a for-years-in-the-basement sports team, count me amongst those who are true B&O "fans". I agree that AV technology today is moving at a very fast clip, and that B&O needs to reinvent their design/production/manufacturing strategy (think Porsche from the early 90's on)

That said, I'm willing to continue to support (like a *true* fan), my favorite team *brand*, through thick and thin. The analogy I think of is when the time traveleer from the movie "The Time Machine" is locked in the volcanic mountain, and is waiting for the years to fly by until nature wears down the mountain, and allows the dawning of a new day and opportunities.

B&O: Get busy reinventing your business model, for both our sakes.

Barry

Beofan

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

MGBGTV8 — Tue, 26 May 2009 03:38:04 GMT

the reputation of Bang and Olufsen in the media is reflected by the journalist comments

if they made the best tv people would be less inclined to be negative ,no one makes connoisseur ignorant jibes at bmw, porsche or in av meridian or linn hifi as two people with experience have mentioned beovisions are not as good as pioneer

wealthy people now have proffesional installs which look stunning, i think a pionner 50 inch kuro looks better quality than the bv8

the av world has changed and left bno behind in price and performance bno seem to be at a low point and need to recover it can be done look at ice amplifiers even audiophiles are impressed

i dont agree on lcd performance on sd the pioneer lcd is stunning on freeview again why is not the beovision as good

on a positive point a lot of there hifi gear is very good and doesnt seem to get such a hard time in the industry

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

rayfenwick — Tue, 26 May 2009 01:16:27 GMT

Flappo The Grate:

personally , i think we need a new designer. david lewis has said many times how much he hates computers , this is proven by the products he designs , there's no acceptance of the digital future

i'm sure that if jacob jensen was still in charge we'd have NO complaints , his best products were always ahead of their time , some of them still look from the year 3000 !

i'd nominate jonny ive , but he's a tad busy at the mo'

anyone else spring to mind ?

Pity Dieter Rams is 77.... oh wait, you said not Johnny Ive.....

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

rayfenwick — Tue, 26 May 2009 01:11:08 GMT

Peter :

...the essence of B&O should be joy - joy of use, joy of ownership and joy of performance. If you have to make excuses, where is the joy?

I don't care about the cost, though clearly you cannot price yourselves out of a market, but I want something out of the ordinary. What we have at present is a veneer - I want it to be solid.

Now THAT's a sensible post.

Tech savvy people are currently saying "A B&O TV is a Panasonic TV in £3000 flashy casing" - and to me that's not what B&O is about.

Plasma/LCD owning friends boggled when I bought my Avant last year: At the picture, at the sound, at the looks - in that order.

The Avant was a very different TV to its contemporaries - not because it was unobtainable, but because it gave excellent picture and sound (surely the raison d'etre of a TV?), looked good when turned off, and was different.

Innovative, superior technology devoid of worthless gimmicks in a simple, sensible, beautiful design with quality workmanship & materials is what B&O should be about. I can be passionate about that, but not about a pretty Danish veneer on an otherwise MOR Japanese product.

It happened in the 1980's with some Beocenters, and who wants them now? They fall under the "not real B&O" category, and compared to 'real' Beocenters like the 7700 and its bretheren the build, looks and performance leave you cold, and accordingly they are white elephants...

In some ways it is happening again with some of the TVs, and it's not good at all.

Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

Flappo The Grate — Tue, 26 May 2009 00:51:57 GMT

personally , i think we need a new designer. david lewis has said many times how much he hates computers , this is proven by the products he designs , there's no acceptance of the digital future

i'm sure that if jacob jensen was still in charge we'd have NO complaints , his best products were always ahead of their time , some of them still look from the year 3000 !

i'd nominate jonny ive , but he's a tad busy at the mo'

anyone else spring to mind ?