General Forum

Re: Loewe commercial

TripEnglish — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:10:05 GMT

The way B&O is a company with a long tradition in electric razors. Whatever happened in the distant past, they are not known as purveyors of sound systems these days. Takes a long time to get a reputation back.

Re: Loewe commercial

entegoe — Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:58 GMT

Clakke:
When you mention this, I remember now that my parents bought a Loewe stereo in the beginning of the seventies. It looked like nothing else and was very cool for that time.

Well, I was talking about the Loewe Legro series, which is from the late 90ties, early 2thousands I think. But I think Loewe (or Loewe Opta) is a company with a long tradition in audio equipment (see http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=12)

Re: Loewe commercial

Clakke — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 13:09:37 GMT

entegoe:

With the change from tubes to LCD and Plasma technology Loewe had to fight with more or less the same problems B&O did. And they introduced LCD televisions pretty late. This led to some economical difficulties in the past as well. Before this area they indeed had audio systems as well. I think their last range of audio components were manufactured by Linn as well as some of their speakers. Another range of speakers are just re-designed BOSE systems - they just look much nicer.

In all cases the quality was good. The design different from B&O but still nice and different what you could get from other brands. I don't think they are still focussing more on components. You buy things separately and extend or exchange your current system. The current design still fits to sets they sold years ago. My current Loewe speakers will still fit with their latest TV sets. From my perspective they don't seem to focus on integrated audio/video "networks" as B&O does.

I personally thing the build quality is as good as B&O. And actually I don't see any reasons why you don't want to match components from both companies. Why shouldn't you use a Loewe television with a B&O audio system. I think my Loewe speakers fit perfectly with B&O stereo as well as with my B&O TV. Unfortunately Loewe isn't selling their "high end" audio equipment anymore.

When you mention this, I remember now that my parents bought a Loewe stereo in the beginning of the seventies. It looked like nothing else and was very cool for that time. It was also of very good quality and lasted for many years. Eventually my grand parents inherited it. What a nice memory you brought back.

B R

Claes

Re: Loewe commercial

entegoe — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:35:45 GMT

Peter :
Agree with 10% about the DVB-S - in the UK the only real choice in satellite is Sky which cannot be built in and if you have Sky, you might as well have Sky+ which gives you seamless recording with the B&O remote including link rooms

Not true. There is something like freeSat - and some other manufactures do offer sets with integrated tuner (I guess Panasonic). However - if people would use decent sized dishes (60cm or more) they could easily receive other (free) satellites as well.

Re: Loewe commercial

entegoe — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:24:00 GMT

TripEnglish:
And Simon, who knows!? I'd be happy if I did. VW should outsell Mercedes in parity volume, but I'm not sure. I know that Loewe is primarily a television maker whose other innovations seem to serve the video segment. I don't think anyone would by a Loewe audio system (or if such a thing really exists) and the certainly wouldn't choose Loewe speakers to go with another system. Bang & Olufsen has many legs to stand on. We have strong innovative offerings in each of our portfolios, so the mix makes us a powerful contender. Loewe would have to start building high quality offerings that could stand on their own and then wait for the reputation to catch up. Could take a decade before someone would think to buy Loewe loudspeakers no matter how good they are.

I am not so sure about it. As you point out B&O customers are lifestyle oriented and travelled. Maybe they have worked abroad for a time. I am not sure in how many countries Loewe is on the market for years. It is regarded as a high quality and design oriented brand. Not as much as B&O as they don't run their own shops. But I know several shop which sold B&O and Loewe - at least in Germany and the UK. People might actually already know the brand when they are back in the US.

With the change from tubes to LCD and Plasma technology Loewe had to fight with more or less the same problems B&O did. And they introduced LCD televisions pretty late. This led to some economical difficulties in the past as well. Before this area they indeed had audio systems as well. I think their last range of audio components were manufactured by Linn as well as some of their speakers. Another range of speakers are just re-designed BOSE systems - they just look much nicer.

In all cases the quality was good. The design different from B&O but still nice and different what you could get from other brands. I don't think they are still focussing more on components. You buy things separately and extend or exchange your current system. The current design still fits to sets they sold years ago. My current Loewe speakers will still fit with their latest TV sets. From my perspective they don't seem to focus on integrated audio/video "networks" as B&O does.

I personally thing the build quality is as good as B&O. And actually I don't see any reasons why you don't want to match components from both companies. Why shouldn't you use a Loewe television with a B&O audio system. I think my Loewe speakers fit perfectly with B&O stereo as well as with my B&O TV. Unfortunately Loewe isn't selling their "high end" audio equipment anymore.

Re: Loewe commercial

Affineur — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:42:35 GMT

"Unlike many countries, most American's eschew luxury, erudition, and any aspiration beyond football quarter-back, so most luxury brands have a difficult time gaining a footprint in the US comparable to their per capita market share in EU."

Trip,

I like your synopsis..... the front line is the best place to observe and this is spot on. My only hope is that out of 300 million there continue to be enough B&O-inclined clients to support the francise. Or perhaps Obama will actually put forth a plan to actually allow educated immigrants back in thereby bolstering the prospects for B&O (and for the economy in general).

Thanks for the commentary, very entertaining!

Re: Loewe commercial

MGBGTV8 — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:30:45 GMT

do you mean your customers are a bit like niles in tv series frazier

whereas normal consumer is there father

niles and frazier always talk of classical music and german cars

americans always mention bno as lifestyle (i dont like the word personally) and try to put product done

strange for such a consumer obsessed society

although in uk your products are often considered quality ie gant and american cars allways revered for size and power

Re: Loewe commercial

TripEnglish — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:39:16 GMT

The_Beonic_Man:

Trip: Do you think you would sell more Loewe TVs than B&O? What is the general feeling of the American public towards B&O? If you could break it down a little, what are the main reasons people are drawn to the brand their? I am curious.

Simon.

First, Soundproof you're exactly right. It's a blurry line between ML's currency and obsolescence. From working in the industry and offering non-B&O solutions however, I can tell you that ML is not as obsolete as it may seem. At the end of the day, no other wireless system is robust enough to cover the real-estate I can cover with ML and no wired solution is as light-weight and flexible as ML. Most solutions of that scale are commodity grade products tied together with top-heavy serial control solutions like Crestron, often relying on a single programmer's talent and a single shops ability to stay in business for ongoing support. Is MasterLink what we would design if we were founded today? Who knows. Maybe not, but it's still unmatched in real-world value. You can have a $1,200 pair of bookshelf speakers or a $22,000 pair of stunners on the same $375 kit run with the same wire? That doesn't exist anywhere else.

(Please excuse the length of the following, but I thought Simon and others might find it interesting.)

And Simon, who knows!? I'd be happy if I did. VW should outsell Mercedes in parity volume, but I'm not sure. I know that Loewe is primarily a television maker whose other innovations seem to serve the video segment. I don't think anyone would by a Loewe audio system (or if such a thing really exists) and the certainly wouldn't choose Loewe speakers to go with another system. Bang & Olufsen has many legs to stand on. We have strong innovative offerings in each of our portfolios, so the mix makes us a powerful contender. Loewe would have to start building high quality offerings that could stand on their own and then wait for the reputation to catch up. Could take a decade before someone would think to buy Loewe loudspeakers no matter how good they are.

In the US, I personally feel that the B&O client is usually an odd duck. They are heavily lifestyle oriented, affluent, and usually well travelled. In other words, not American! Unlike many countries, most American's eschew luxury, erudition, and any aspiration beyond football quarter-back, so most luxury brands have a difficult time gaining a footprint in the US comparable to their per capita market share in EU. For a personal example: my own mother-in-law was visiting recently and went looking in our fridge for mustard (apparently looking for "Yellow" which my wife and I have never purchased). Finding only half a dozen or so "unique" mustards she commented, "even the MUSTARD? Doesn't it ever get tiring!?" That pretty much sums up the feeling of most Americans. They see the notion of pleasure in everyday routines as an affectation at best or a form of gluttony at worst. Maybe its the puritanical blood that still runs in our veins that we feel devices should be ugly and frustrating, food should be bland, plentiful, and aggressively filling, cars should be the size of houses and handle accordingly, clothing should fit generously and should be assembled poorly, and on and on. Basically if we're enjoying ourselves there's something wrong!

So that's a bit of an oversimplification, but only by a little. On the bright side, however, there has probably been more progress in the last few years than the last century. Shops like Target have gone to the bank on the idea of "Design" and IKEA has penetrated even a few rural markets. None of these are high-quality, but as I've said a few times before on this very thread, I'd prefer a client who is predisposed to "designed" offerings than the careless dreck. Just like I'd rather see people buying cheap suits at H&M or Zara than Macy's, since it shows engagement with the subject and will ultimately lead to a cognizant appreciation rather than a passive and joyless acquisition and use.

Again, a thousand pardons for the length!

Re: Loewe commercial

Dave — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:46:55 GMT

All i can see is B&O products being nipped at the heels, and i'm liking seeing this. It's as simple as that.

As i've probably said ten times, i'm not buying a flat screen TV so this doesn't concern me directly. Not for as long as my CRT's last/ or until flat screen PQ catches up.

Re: Loewe commercial

Henri — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 08:40:20 GMT

Excellent point of view, soundproof.

As a non-purist (explained in another thread) I can see the problems that cause some of the lack of appeal to many potential customers - to some degree myself included.

It's safe to say that AV has gone digital during last decade or so. Music has become a commodity and having an easily manageable access to your whole music collection is taken for granted nowadays. At home, this usually means streaming audio over LAN/WLAN, from a dedicated server like your computer. Video, too, I have a habit of transferring all my DVD:s and BluRays to a RAID NAS, and I record lots of TV series, mainly documentaries, from HDTV cable & sat.

Streaming everything to TViX HD media players (and a couple of HTPC:s) around the house is my preferred way of listening to music and watching movies. They're instantly accessible everywhere and even though separate brand X/Y/Z AV components aren't quite as user friendly as B&O, in most cases they'll do nicely. I'm currently looking to upgrade some, even most of these with B&O products, but the problem is that I can only do it partially and doing a 100% Beoswap would be prohibitively expensive.

So, let's concentrate in my case, just as an example. What I need is...

3 x home theater -capable setup, streaming HD video + audio, BluRay, HDTV tuner, HDMI/component outputs, DD, DTS, support for a wide range of AV codecs, subtitling etc.
2 x CD + radio + streaming audio with at least basic video capabilities
2 x CD + radio + streaming audio, no need for video

All streams must be server (FreeBSD/Linux) based or, preferably, multistandard including DLNA, SMB and NFSmounted drives. No B&O product can fit the bill with HT setups, some would be fine for other applications but finding the perfect solution, cost-wise too, is difficult.

What I, personally, would love to see and what I'd be ready to purchase even at a moderate price would be a modular system. I mean something along the lines of newer Beosound systems with (upgradeable) options you could choose based on what you actually need. And all this in a fairly compact, all-in-one frame.

Let's call this concept "Beocenter X". In basic configuration it doesn't need much, streaming audio support (LAN/WLAN), radio, memory card reader and maybe a CD player. Modular options like swapping the CD for a DVD/BluRay, possibility to install an SSD hard drive, HD video module with all associated and user-upgradeable codecs + processing power, Icepower amplifier module for situations where passive speakers are used (in-wall, outdoors etc.) and leaving all possibilities open for making sure the system is as futureproof as possible.

The modular approach has proved itself in other fields time and time again. I wouldn't even see it impossible if B&O licensed this kind of "modular bus" for third party manufacturers, to be able to offer officially licensed speciality modules they don't see feasible to manufacture themselves. Another plus is that, in addition to the functionality of the basic system, you could pay only for the features you need, making the system ideal for 2nd/3rd/4th room audio setups as well.

I'm currently a bit frustrated because some of my all-time favourite B&O products like Beocenter 9*00 are outdated, having no MP3 support for casual background music listening, not to mention having to burn better quality FLAC audio files to CD-R:s and swap CD:s every hour or so, just to mention one of my pet peeves. Design is timeless but unfortunately it has a limited appeal when technology isn't.

I'm sure more people would be ready to buy a far more expensive, well designed and great looking AV system if there was a good chance it's futureproof enough for years of up-to-date service. At least I, as an architect and a long-time fan of B&O visual design, I absolutely, positively would.

Just a thought.

Re: Loewe commercial

soundproof — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:43:11 GMT

Let's be fair to B&O, they created a brilliant analog home A/V link system in the early 80s, with sufficient resiliency to actually be surprising me even today. In all likelihood, Masterlink has saved B&O, as it has tied customers to B&O solutions and ensured future sales once an installation's in place.

BUT - B&O has probably hung on too long, a hazard all brands face when they have a solution that is proprietary, and that is universally implemented across the brand.
B&O's not the only one that should be blamed. Interestingly, none of the new developments we're now taking for granted have come from A/V manufacturers, which shows that it's not only B&O that have had a stuck dial on what's possible.

Wireless audio/video, hard disk recording of content, two-way wireless/LAN/Bluetooth, music organizing software -- all have come from companies outside the A/V sphere (computer manufacturers, stand alone software developers (Salling, Remote Buddy), cable companies, Tivo).

And we then get to a question I always ask my clients, when I begin working for them: If you were starting up today, what would you do differently? The question is designed to unearth legacy behaviors, things companies do because that's how they do them, instead of what they would be doing if they didn't have the baggage.

If B&O started up today, they wouldn't be running ML-wiring between rooms, it's that simple. And they would have a two-way remote. And you would have full-resolution (and high-resolution) audio and video moving wirelessly between rooms. And the storage devices would be embedded in the products and capable of full-resolution storage and playback. And for as long as B&O doesn't get there, and soon, the brand will be under fire.
It's hard to understand that I can install a Mac mini, speaking to an iPod Touch, and have better music/DVD/HD-video/television/web browsing/ than that offered by ANY A/V consumer electronics provider. But that's a fact - and some companies, like LOEWE, have faced up to it.

===

To your question. Many have tried to challenge B&O in the past, but none have attained B&O's position, both in consumers' minds and in size (given its premium position.) SONY did a really embarrassing effort with Qualia; Philips have never figured out that plastic and premium don't go together; Linn has had too many strange solutions. Meridian is now moving in on B&O's audio market, and LOEWE on the televisions/room connect -- we'll see how that plays out.
For what it's worth, I believe the present CEO at B&O has a better handle on what needs to be done than his predecessor, and has the knowledge required to drive B&O, not just sit in the back seat thinking he is driving. (TBS would use that analogy when describing what it was like to be in charge of B&O, not trying to slam him.)

Re: Loewe commercial

Clakke — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 03:52:35 GMT

soundproof:

Sometimes get the impression we're discussing religion here, and not A/V!

The Loewe sets are great lookers, and they have (of course) reached for their own design. Loewe is a serious competitor to B&O because they don't have the legacy shackle of ML to defend, which means they can leap straight to the next generation of interlink, which they've done.

I totally agree. I think that comparing Loewe technology today with B&O technology today is like comparing Star Wars with the second world war. I am sure that B&O can do better than so far, or at least I hope so. As Trip stated, it is good for B&O to have a company like Loewe to measure against. A question for you people that has followed B&O for long: Is this the first time in history that B&O has a competitor on the arena?

B R

Clakke

Re: Loewe commercial

Clakke — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 03:40:08 GMT

Peter :

I would still buy B&O myself simply because I refuse to have more remotes hanging around.

The Philips Prestigo can control Loewe as well...

B R

Clakke

Re: Loewe commercial

Puncher — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 03:15:31 GMT

They definitely seem to be going for it - see attached pdf.

Re: Loewe commercial

The_Beonic_Man — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:00:07 GMT

I don't think its about being stubborn Dave. There's not much more I can add to this debate because my views are pretty well stated now I think! Its simply not for me for various reasons. Thats not to say I don't think its an interesting product, it is, and I would rate it higher than Sony's and the like as I previously posted, but it just doesn't grab my attention in the same way that a B&O product does. I like gadgets, I like gimmicks, I like minimalist designs and unlike Peter I love to impress and I love to be impressed and, B&O products do impress me. They are the only products that do. I am not blinded by my love for their products, but rarely (if ever) does anything ever come along that compares. I am not knocking the TV, simply stating that there's no magic in it for me. It actually wouldn't matter if it produced better pictures or better sound than my B&O products, I'd still buy B&O. I wonder, if people could buy a B&O TV for the same price as the Loewe, would they still choose Loewe over B&O? I am sure many would revert to a B&O set and you have to question why? Sometimes you can't put your finger on something, its a feeling, its a desire, its a love affair, its 'whatever it is for you,' very much like a piece of art. When I urm and argh over a piece of art I never buy it. Yet, the pieces I have bought I knew immediately were right when I first saw them, so there was absolutly no hesitation and it was an instant purchase. B&O is very often like that ... but not always, granted. Its fascinating that a Loewe product can have so much influence on a B&O enthusiasts website.

Trip: Do you think you would sell more Loewe TVs than B&O? What is the general feeling of the American public towards B&O? If you could break it down a little, what are the main reasons people are drawn to the brand their? I am curious.

Simon.