General Forum

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

wirralsimon — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 03:50:16 GMT

Steve at Sounds Heavenly:

I have taken countless critical comments over the years from "audiophile" friends who have knocked my choice of B&O systems, although my kit has always given me a far more enjoyable listening experience than their (often far more expensive) hifi systems. I love the whole ownership experience, including the operation, control, appearance, build quality and not least the sound of my B&O equipment.

I think that sums it up nicely. B&O kit isn't cheap but it sounds good and it's easy to live with and listen to.

Simon

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Steve at Sounds Heavenly — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:01:08 GMT

Hee hee!

I'm just surprised that someone else appears to be on my wavelength for once!

Cheers,

Steve.

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Puncher — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 05:53:15 GMT

Steve at Sounds Heavenly:

I agree with you Dave!

You needn't sound suprised!

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Steve at Sounds Heavenly — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:42:10 GMT

I agree with you Dave!

I have taken countless critical comments over the years from "audiophile" friends who have knocked my choice of B&O systems, although my kit has always given me a far more enjoyable listening experience than their (often far more expensive) hifi systems. I love the whole ownership experience, including the operation, control, appearance, build quality and not least the sound of my B&O equipment.

I think that B&O have produced some of the world's best audio equipment, but it will rarely be accepted as "audiophile" (with the exception of the awesome BeoLab 5) due to its focus on listening pleasure above cold facts and figures.

As a manufacturer of cables and accessories for B&O systems and also more conventional "hifi" brands (including Naim, Quad, Meridian, Audiolab and Rega), I find that most hifi owners I speak to are also searching for "great music", but their quest for the perfect specifications often gets in the way (as does a lack of understanding of these specifications in many cases!).

I will carry on saving up for my BeoLab 5's and I promise to offer my views when they are finally in pride of place in my living room!

Best regards,

Steve.

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Puncher — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:58:06 GMT

moxxey:

What I mean is that the perception of an average potential B&O customer is that the products only work together - you couldn't connect a BL5 to a high-end (none B&O) amp.
Maybe B&O should spend some time pushing their superb new speaker range and show how to connect to other amps.

If you are talking about another "high-end" power amp, why would you want to do that? The reason, in part, the BL5 performs as it does is because the internal amps are matched and compensated for the individual drivers, giving optimal performance.

On the other hand, third party "high-end" pre-amps can be connected to the BL5 via the phono/line input or spdif. Easy peasy.

One of the problems pushing B&O into the general hifi arena is that you generally can't audition them sided by side in a shop with non-B&O candidates and so they tend not to figure in the "potential" line up.

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

moxxey — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:02:58 GMT

I also agree. I had a conversation with someone about this today. The BL5, BL9 and BL3's are products which ought to be separated from the rest of the range. What I mean is that the perception of an average potential B&O customer is that the products only work together - you couldn't connect a BL5 to a high-end (none B&O) amp.

That suddenly ramps up the price of these speakers. Wouldn't it be good if someone who was already happy with their amp and audio setup, be able to walk in to a B&O store and purchase BL3's or BL9's which are actually reasonably priced, for the performance that they offer.

We know, as B&O users, that you can connect these speakers to other equipment, but it's not obvious to other users. Indeed, most dealers will either say you can't or will encourage you to only connect to B&O 'amp'.

Maybe B&O should spend some time pushing their superb new speaker range and show how to connect to other amps.

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Alex — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:11:18 GMT

I agree with you, it's a shame the BeoLab 3s and 5s haven't been adopted more by the professional industry. IMO this is an area B&O could persue without it negatively affecting the other areas they need to concentrate on (core competences). Most of the work is already done, they just need to supply the speakers with XLR connections and some sort of basic control unit (on/off PowerLink controller basically).

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Dave Moulton — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:18:15 GMT

From my position toiling in the bowels of the audio industry trying to make loudspeakers, teach people, make recordings and write about it all, the following thoughts:

"Audiophiles" are passionate hobbyists who REALLY love (and invest a lot in, both financially and emotionally) their audio systems and sonic experiences. They are not necessarily well-schooled in science or engineering disciplines, and they may hold beliefs and maintain value systems that are not easily supported by science and/or engineering. No matter – they derive immense pleasure and satisfaction from their audiophile pursuits, as does the restorer of Formula II cars from 1958-61. It's a passion.

Professional use is something else entirely, and unrelated to audiophilia (although there is some overlap between audiophiles and audio professionals). Professionals work with audio as a way to make a living, and choose hardware that helps them do this. They too aren't entirely rational and scientific about this, tending to go with what they KNOW will work (an essential conservatism that sometimes gets in the way of significant advances - the acoustic lens serves as a useful example of that problem).

B&O does not cater to either audiophiles or audio engineers. It caters to "uppermiddleclass Type A personalities who desire to enjoy their possessions and differentiate themselves culturally at the same time." (that would be us, here on BeoWorld – you too, Andy!)

My personal experience has been that B&O products generally provide great "pleasure of ownership." They do so through excellent design, engineering and performance.

That performance is certainly equal to or better than much audiophile "performance" and certainly most professional performance. I've been surprised and a little disappointed that BeoLab 5s and 3s have not enjoyed greater adoption in the recording and mastering industries, because they provide so much performance (at a comparatively modest cost, believe it or not – maybe it's that pesky acoustic lens!)

Seriously, B&O audio and video gear is right up there with the best on the planet.

Thanks for listening.

Best regards,

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Flappo The Grate — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:52:03 GMT

tbh all that high end hi fi mumbo jumbo makes me laugh

i recall that flat earth hi fi review mag in the mid 80's that espoused making marks on your mains plugs , attaching bits of red plastic to your wires and putting a brick on your amp as ways to 'improve' the sound

yeah , whatever... :D

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

Friedmett — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:56:32 GMT

B&O and the term HIFI?

They kind of left the comparison back in the '70s. I can't compare with the post 1990-2008 products but with the high caliber flagship models like Beolab 8000 and Beosystem 6000 you get music played in the most acurate condition it can deliver.

I love both my systems for that. A few months ago I was in a so called Hifi store and while some big speakers were playing some hard/heavy music I could not tell a difference and to be perfectly honest design of Hifi really is 98% ugly.

Re: B&O professional audiophile equipment or not....

TWG — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:59:56 GMT

nmartin771:
Of course I think that all B&O equipment is more than professional but many people dont think that...
But I think time has changed and more and more renowned Hi-fi magazine and people with hight reputation in Hi-Fi world think like we do...
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/Userfiles/File/Press/Lab-report_BeoLab9.pdf
Yes I know that here we think the same...But I would like to hear your opinion about this issue and if you have links and articles about what other thinks of B&O in general I would like to read and see this.

Personaly I think that only some B&O products deliver true and high quality sound. The sound is pleasing and decent without "hurting" your ear as some speakers do. But I think it is NOT professional. Professional is, perhaps, the wrong term because I think "professional" is equipment for studios etc. (on the mobile site: check the Sony PCM-D1 or its smaller brother PCM-D50) and not the equipment you typcial buy for your home listening experience. What bothers me on B&O:
I have a Beosound 3000 which I realy like! It's built quality is better than the modern Beosound 4 and it's a true B&O product. It has the magic ... but I'm man enough to admit that its construction is not realy highend all the way. Why? When I put in my headphones I can hear noise when no music is playing. Noise from HIFI-equpiment? That is an absolutely faux pas!
I can live with this because you don't hear it when listening through the speakers but it's the psychical aspect that "you know it's there ..." which makes me a little bit sad and forces the opinion that design has more weight than technical quality.

The "human-machine-interface" is simple on e.g. the Beosound 3000 but ask somebody to set the time or an alarm on the Beosound 3 and I'll bet he can't without looking into the manual.

But it's the complete package you have to see on B&O: The whole package is just very nice. You have a remote control for 15 years old equipment and one for your actual equipment and we all know: It's just the same remote (Beo 4, Beo 5, Beolink 1000 etc.) and I just love that. The building quality of the "old" stuff (Avant, Beosound 3000, 9000, Beocenter 2, Beolab 8000, Beolab 1, Beolab 6000, Beolab 5 etc.) is just great! It's "Made in Denmark" and you can not only see it, you can feel it.

You can use a Beo 4 remote to defense yourself ;-) That's not possible with all the normal plastic remote controls.

It's unbelievable if you hear such small speakers like the Beolab 6000. How can they get so much sound from such a small package and speaker? Great.
And if you hear the Beolab 5 you KNOW that B&O IS capable of true audiophile quality.

So I hope for the future that they go back to their roots and concentrate on audio, video, high build quality, high end finish without that cheapo "Made in china" label where they ask the same high prices for 70% less production costs - like BOSE and many other companies did.

Re: B&O profesional audiophile equipment or not....

Mr10Percent — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 05:46:13 GMT

Nice anecdote.

I have had a similar experience with my boss who occasionally professes to know something about "real" hi-fi.

We once had a party and as always, the crowd gawps around my BL5's and the BC2. After playing a couple of my "reference" CD's to show off, I got a "hummm. it's a nice sound" in a rather unimpressive way. Knowing the individual and his tastes, what I read from his words and expression was a common trait:- "sounds bloody fantastic - but it's a B&O and therefore it can't real hi-fi. Just a toy or a Bose system or something with B and an O in it".

I often read the same in hi-fi mags. "Sounds great, could get the same for less money". The truth is (and this is my opinion) is that B&O does sound great (aka, smooth and detailed) and (now) does have a decent bass response and actually costs surprisingly little for the sound you get.

Overall however, I think that the main block that B&O actually has is that it does indeed sound good and looks good too - something real hifi is not supposed to do and that it does have a negative history. Also, as previously mentioned - and something that a number of forum members here are guilty of is in criticising B&O on it's tweakability or lack-of. This is often seen as a lack in function or value etc...

However, if you get down to what really counts (again my opinion), B&O sounds good, looks good, is plain and simple to set up and allows me to concentrate on the music for a reasonable price. Others may disagree but in the end, it comes down to the preference of what you want for your money.

10%

Re: B&O profesional audiophile equipment or not....

soundproof — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 01:40:34 GMT

Medogsfat - is that another cable debate? Where you refer to the RadioShack cables? Or is it Mike Lavigne with Transparent against Monster MM? If not the latter, then I would love to have a link - as I seem to have missed that.

===

Difficult topic, this. It really depends upon what you mean by "audiophile." Today's trend in audiophile isn't so much listening as it is tweaking, with high-end having become an endless routine of "matching" components in a quest for "the ultimate sound."
Trouble is that when they are asked to identify the improvement in sound - without knowing what they are listening to - they have the hardest time being specific. (Numerous blind tests of both cables, cd-players and amplifiers seem to indicate this.)

Loudspeakers remain a component where it's possible to tell differences, though when you see the eagerness with which people tell themselves that Bose's minuscule speakers are "excellent" - you might be forgiven for wondering about that.

B&O delivers excellent sound in tests, but usually lose points on price, in comparison with other makes. As B&O is tweakfree - you can't juggle cables/components, and the active speakers distinguish the brand from 98% of audiophile hifi - the brand simply doesn't fit under the umbrella.

Does the brand deliver audiophile quality sound? Yes, there are speakers in the line-up that deliver powerfully AND true. I have seen reviews of the BL3s that stated they were the perfect close-listening speakers, to be used, for instance, with a Linn Unidisk player; and critical listeners regularly get thrown by the sound quality of the BeoLab 5s, which people have a hard time believing.

Do, however, remember that the audiophile jury is still uncomfortable with the concept of Class-D amplifiers, and the remodulation of the signal in these - in spite of the category having been widely launched into other high-end hifi brands by now, often using ICEpower solutions from B&O. "True" audiophiles consider ICEpower inferior to Class A and Class A/B amplifiers - speaking of the "itsy bitsy components, that can't possibly deliver proper sound" - the bias is waning, though, as there are advantages to Class-D.

I think B&O should have made much more of an issue of being on a tweak-free audiophile path, with testimonials as to the quality of their sound from leading musicians and other performers - that might have swayed the tweako-audiophiles. And would also have built confidence among existing B&O owners in the solutions they have invested in.

It's kind of fun to expose leading members of the audiophile church to what a pair of BeoLab 5s can do, when connected to a simple source which delivers a coax S/PDIF signal to the speakers. I've had the opportunity to do that on several occasions. They just can't believe their ears - but it's also worth remembering that everything they see in that set-up seems wrong to them: the simple source; the thin signal cables; the regular power-chord; the "strange" shape of the speakers, which they think is due to design considerations, until it is explained that these are the first speakers from B&O where the shape is dictated by the intended function ...

I played a movement from one of Mahler's symphonies on my BL5s for one such listener. And when we started out, he asked me to turn the sound down, "as it would otherwise distort when the orchestra gets going for real." He was astonished when the speakers just kept raising and raising the bar, no matter what the orchestra threw at them, and with my dB-gauge in hand, he couldn't believe the true symphony orchestra fff sound pressure we reached, without any discernible distortion whatsoever, and still without the speakers straining at all.
Another listener is a connoisseur of string quartets and trios, and knows the live sound of these in and out. He placed a disc with a well known string quartet in my cd-player, sat back and hit play. Ten seconds later he announced "I don't really have to listen any more. This is the sound of a live string quartet. How on earth...?"

Re: B&O profesional audiophile equipment or not....

Medogsfat — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:22:03 GMT

Daniel:
Medogsfat:

I do like the BL9000's
You mean BL9?

Just thinking ahead Daniel

Of course I do mean BL9's, I blame the beer

Chris.

Re: B&O profesional audiophile equipment or not....

Daniel — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:01:45 GMT

Medogsfat:

I do like the BL9000's

You mean BL9?