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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 06-20-2011 3:28 PM by geoff martin. 20 replies.
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  • 06-15-2011 1:10 PM

    A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    One of the highlights of the trip was a visit to Geoff Martin, the B&O tonmeister, who is responsible for the voicing of the B&O range. His reputation was well trailed by Lee who described him as a chap who could make the composition of a billiard ball sound exciting.

    He started by demonstrating the work he had done on the Beosound 8. Using a demo model with the electronics outside the chassis, he was able to show what the BS8 would sound like with a flat frequency response and then added the layers of sound equalization to counter the effect of crossovers and power response on and off axis.

    Using an iPad as a control medium, we were able to switch between various setting and using different types of music, Geoff demonstrated that a compromise between frequency response and power curves were essential to produce a product able to please one’s expectations. He also demonstrated the software capabilities of the iPad in helping with analyzing basic frequency responses.

    We were then taken to the cube where the drivers and speakers are analysed in immense detail before reaching the listening stages. He started by explaining about frequency responses on and off axis for drivers and factors affecting off axis responses including diffraction from edges. He demonstrated the flat off axis response of the ALT speakers, which suddenly made sense.

    Returning to the listening room, he demonstrated something he was working on but which has not even been given a name. Our lips are sealed on the actual product details, partly because they were behind a curtain but also because he was not letting on about their design.

    Clearly still in development, but the amount of air moved by these speakers was of a magnitude not seen before by a B&O product. Something for the future it would seem and a sign that B&O and Geoff never rest.

    During the course of our time with him, he described how he starts the process of voicing speakers, his being the final step in a multidiscipline process – the design and specifications will be decided elsewhere, as is the basic equalisation and he is left to mould the sound to the desired end point. He also explained the mystery of the 250W power amplifier for a tweeter, explaining that although tweeters use very little power for the vast majority of the time, sudden transients call for immense power and that in some cases, 250W could be regarded as an absolute minimum.

    He also discussed the various compromises forced upon him, both by design and driver specifications. The secret units behind the curtain were approached in the exact opposite way, with no compromise either in driver quality or design to reduce his ability to obtain the best possible sound. Possibly one reason we were not allowed to see them! Bleeding ears are one thing – eyes something else!

    We discussed old and new speakers, the Penta coming in for some discussion (as it did elsewhere, with a good number of B&O employees still using these and the Beovision Avant in their own set ups) and the voicing of the 6002 in particular being mentioned. The sound was deliberately made to sound very similar to the 6000 simply so that a pair could act as a pair of fronts or rears when matched with the older version.

    The message we took away was the attention lavished on each and every product and although, like the Irishman asked for directions, he stated that he personally would not start from the designs given to him, the pride in his work and the end product was clearly evident. As long as B&O has a Geoff Martin in the listening room, we know that we will be in great hands.  

     

     


  • 06-15-2011 2:09 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Thanks Peter for sharing what was clearly a wonderful experience

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 06-15-2011 3:28 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Thanks a lot for the post Peter, it is always nice to hear from the people designing the sounds of a speaker, and with what idea they "design" the sound.

    Sometimes I think it could be great if B&O more in detail could explain how they have tried to set up the speakers in relation to the sound, i.e. what idea is behind the sound of i.e. BL5 or BL9, and how would people be able to notice that. Some of my music sounds very bad on my BL9, whereas some other music sounds fantastic (currently I love Agnes Obel latest CD).

    That could also (maybe) explain why some people don't think that the BL9 or even the BL5 has a good sound (see other posts lately). 

    Actually, I don't think that (many?) dealers has this detailed knowledge of the speaker design, I hope though.

    Once agan, thanks for the post. I remember that our TonMeister explained the (his?) idea behind AST in some posts a while ago, that was nice reading Yes -  thumbs up

    There is something about B&O.....

  • 06-15-2011 3:58 PM In reply to

    • Evan
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    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Thank you Peter! It's great Geoff took the time to share all of this.

    So nice to read... Very good to know that B&O is still exploring the 'no compromise' area! 

    Evan

     

  • 06-16-2011 6:27 AM In reply to

    • quader
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    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Was the trip to Struer organised by yourself ?

    It is something i would like to do

  • 06-16-2011 7:28 AM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
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    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    quader:

    Was the trip to Struer organised by yourself ?

    It is something i would like to do

    As if by magic.. HERE YOU GO !!

     

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 06-17-2011 11:42 AM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    OMG!

    Secret speakers .... huge amount of moved air .... hidden behind curtains .... no compromise speakers ...

    I know now how Justin Bieber fans feel ....

    Should I start and save some money ???

    How do I explain my wife that the 5's were not the last speakers I'd ever buy in my life?? 

    Is it decadent to use Beolab 5's as rear sourround speakers if the new ones rock more?

    ( Just a small snapshot of my thoughts while reading this...)

    Stephan

    P.S. I BET that PeterPan will do a mockup picture of the speakers... The "Beolab 5²" / or "Beolab 5 encore" that has the size and looks of a x-mas tree, 6 discs per speaker with the largest minmum 100 cm in diameter and a total output of 25000 Watt ... Just to match the recent TV sets ;-) 

  • 06-17-2011 11:49 AM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
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    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Stephan:

    P.S. I BET that PeterPan will do a mockup picture of the speakers... The "Beolab 5²" / or "Beolab 5 encore" that has the size and looks of a x-mas tree, 6 discs per speaker with the largest minmum 100 cm in diameter and a total output of 25000 Watt ... Just to match the recent TV sets ;-) 

    I conjured up a picture of the Eiffel Tower with a downward facing bass driver in the bottom just then..  Laughing

    Lee

    PS - I can confirm (as i was there) that the 'acoustic curtains' were waving around like there was a window open on a breezy day.. That's a lot of air being moved.  Geeked

     

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 06-17-2011 5:38 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    "...moving around alot of air..."

    Sounds like organ musoc to me!

    B
  • 06-17-2011 6:06 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    He finished the demo by playing 'Also sprach Zarathustra' and these speakers go down to less than 15Hz. The sensation was stunning - if not altogether pleasurable! Although not confirmed as being used, he did talk about some very long throw bass units with some affection! The speakers were at the first stage of equalisation so he still had some magic to weave. They were particularly effective at brass in my opinion.

  • 06-17-2011 7:46 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Brass is good!

    Organ is good!

    YUM!

    Cant wait! I just finished recapping and midding by Penta IIs so they should how me a while.

    B
  • 06-18-2011 5:13 AM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Good stuff. Cool Yes -  thumbs up

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 06-18-2011 10:19 AM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Time to dust off the Herb Alpert!

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 06-18-2011 11:17 AM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Or buy somebrand new Bellowhead :

     

    Produced by John Leckie, new album is superb.

    Filed under:
  • 06-19-2011 9:52 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    bsantini:
    Brass is good!

    Organ is good!

    If you play a descending scale on the bottom octave on the pedals of an organ it almost sounds like a crescendo in volume to the modern ear because we're so used to the fall-off you get below 50Hz on nearly all speaker systems. Yet the scaling and volume of pipe sizes that were determined to sound right by people centuries ago did this without electronic limitations. It's not that there weren't economic considerations in the past- a single low 16' C pipe in an organ may have as many pounds of tin/lead metal as whole other stops, so it isn't new that there's simply a lot of work that has to go into the bottom octave. I say this as a former organ pipe maker. And it's true, those big pipes move a lot of air! And I think Geoff Martin knows this, being an organist himself...

     

    Steve
  • 06-20-2011 10:55 AM In reply to

    • AdamS
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    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Glad to see Geoff is still weaving his magic!

    I met him when I visited Struer in 2007 with Hi-Fi World and frankly, I could have sat and chatted to him all day. Truly a friendly, intelligent and approachable individual.

  • 06-20-2011 11:31 AM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    You are right - a really friendly and amusing chap - having to deal with Lee and myself - certainly I have cloth ears and I think Lee would agree that his didn't seem a lot more discerning with some of our observations! Embarrassed

    We had a thoroughly splendid trip. Although it was not planned that way, the date of our trip actually co-incided with my birthday, which I had intended to keep quiet. Lee unfortunately found out and told everyone (very embarrassing especially when every plasma screen in Struer appeared to have Happy Birthday Peter written on it!) This resulted in my being spoiled something rotten, given a present by the CEO and royally wined and dined every night. We were taken aback by the warmth of the greeting given to us - Jette and Tommy were wonderful hosts all through our stay and we were allowed access to places that we never thought possible - though our lips are sealed about some things as we signed an agreement which basically allows B&O to take our first born as tribute should we slip up!! Big Smile

    Geoff Martin was trailed as one of the highlights and indeed he is a truly fascinating chap - in the mythical 'who would you most like to have at a dinner party list', he would be right there!

    In addition to the kindness shown by B&O, we also got to meet Dillen and Dullen! A truly wonderful couple who are even more firm friends having met them. Frede and Kirsten also very kindly invited us to their beautiful home where Frede cooked for us - he is a wonderful chef - and meeting Ronny at the museum was, as usual, a wonderful treat.

    Lee was a perfect travelling companion - generous to a fault - and witty and knowledgeable at all times. His charisma charmed all he met and made up for the boring side kick he had brought along. This was the most enjoyable week I have had for many a year and has only strengthened my resolve to go back to Denmark sooner with my family.

  • 06-20-2011 12:35 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Peter :

    His reputation was well trailed by Lee who described him as a chap who could make the composition of a billiard ball sound exciting.

    Hi Peter,

    Thanks for the glowing report! (My Mom was very proud when she read it. ;-) ) I enjoyed our chat as well!

    Now, however, I feel compelled to learn about the composition of billiard balls, just in case... I never knew (until just now...) that some of the early replacements for ivory included wood (!) and that, in the late 1800's, the celluloid ones were rumoured to be exploding. Somewhat Monty Python-esque - but exciting, nonetheless!

    Cheers

    -geoff

  • 06-20-2011 12:52 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    Stephan:

    Is it decadent to use Beolab 5's as rear surround speakers

    Hi Stephan,

    Having demo'ed out a 7.0 system with 7 BL5's back when we did the press release of the BeoSystem 3 in Struer some years ago, I would say that the answer is "no". :-)

    cheers

    -geoff

  • 06-20-2011 1:30 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    geoff martin:

    Peter :

    His reputation was well trailed by Lee who described him as a chap who could make the composition of a billiard ball sound exciting.

    Hi Peter,

    Thanks for the glowing report! (My Mom was very proud when she read it. ;-) ) I enjoyed our chat as well!

    Now, however, I feel compelled to learn about the composition of billiard balls, just in case... I never knew (until just now...) that some of the early replacements for ivory included wood (!) and that, in the late 1800's, the celluloid ones were rumoured to be exploding. Somewhat Monty Python-esque - but exciting, nonetheless!

    Cheers

    -geoff

     

     

    See - I told you!

    Quite right about the celluloid - the film archives have had the same issue, and my other odd habit of collecting pens runs into the same problem!

    Just to say that Lee and I had a splendid time and all of you were so kind to us. I think it shows B&O in a very good light that it seems to care about its customers and is not just a faceless brand. I look forward to our next meeting though it would seem that you will get to meet a large crowd of Beoworlders relatively soon. I am sure they will be just as impressed with your charm and knowledge.

  • 06-20-2011 3:28 PM In reply to

    Re: A trip to the Tonmeister - Struer Trip

    beolion:

    Sometimes I think it could be great if B&O more in detail could explain how they have tried to set up the speakers in relation to the sound, i.e. what idea is behind the sound of i.e. BL5 or BL9, and how would people be able to notice that. Some of my music sounds very bad on my BL9, whereas some other music sounds fantastic (currently I love Agnes Obel latest CD).

    That could also (maybe) explain why some people don't think that the BL9 or even the BL5 has a good sound (see other posts lately). 

     

    Hi,

    Of course, the answer to the first question is... complicated. It depends on the loudspeaker in question - the goal for a BeoSound 8 was different from that for the BeoLab 5. Each product has its own set of issues to balance, and, consequently, its own particular set of solutions that come together to make up the final sound. (I'm not trying to be intentionally obscure - honest! It really is complicated...)

     

    However, one way to answer both questions is with a hypothetical example. Let's say that you have a loudspeaker that is perfect except for one flaw - and let's say that this flaw is a big, narrow bump in the response at 220 Hz. If you listen to Jennifer Warnes singing "Bird on a Wire" from Famous Blue Raincoat it will sound terrible, because that's in the key of A Major, and A = 220 Hz and she sings that note often, so the problem is highlighted. However, if you listen to Leonard Cohen singing "Tower of Song" from Live in London, you won't hear a problem, not only because he sings it in the key of D-flat and there aren't many A's in D-flat major, but 220 Hz is a little out of Leonard's range these days...

    This is an overly-simplistic example, but it touches on the broader answer. If the problem(s) in a given loudspeaker+room+placement combination are in frequency ranges that aren't excited by the music you're listening to, then there are no problems to complain about. If the music hits the problem area(s) on the nose, then bad things happen and disappointment ensues...

    This is why part of my job is to listen to an eclectic mix of music (and movies / television shows) all the time in an attempt to cover as many bases as I can. A good recording of the Firebird Suite will push a big woofer harder than Smells Like Teen Spirit can. Back in Black shows off some tweeter problems faster than string quartet recordings do. When we're working on a new product, it will change hands through many people in the company so that each of us can play our own music collection on the speaker to see if we can find problems that have not yet been spotted.

    cheers

    -geoff

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