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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 11-30-2009 4:47 AM by tournedos. 32 replies.
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  • 11-28-2009 10:55 AM

    • Bikkel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-28-2009
    • Posts 9
    • Bronze Member

    Buttonless remote

    All remotes from BEO have buttons.

    All remotes are based on a box sprinkled with buttons.

    Why not try to think out of the box.

    Please have a look at this new project i am busy with.

    www.bikkel.com

    Enjoy.

    Regards,

    Ruud de Vaal

  • 11-28-2009 11:09 AM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    I'm sure you've anticipated the criticism that the egg's two functions are out of step with the complex home systems of today. My TV functions haven't been limited to channel & volume for 25 years, nor do I change the colors of my single home lightbulb.

    Neat concept, though.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 11-28-2009 11:26 AM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    I like the concept. Just wondered how you switch between sources (TV, light, radio, CD). By the way there has been a buttonless remote for years, the Beolink 7000.

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 11-28-2009 11:43 AM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    beocool:
    I like the concept. Just wondered how you switch between sources (TV, light, radio, CD).

    Crack it open? Erm

    BTW, whatever happened to this?

     

    All in all, nice concept... keep us posted! Smile

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 11-28-2009 11:48 AM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    burantek:

    beocool:
    I like the concept. Just wondered how you switch between sources (TV, light, radio, CD).

    Crack it open? Erm

    BTW, whatever happened to this?

    How could I forget?! I really liked that one. It was used as a graduation project and after that I haven't heard anything about it anymore.

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 11-28-2009 11:58 AM In reply to

    • Bikkel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-28-2009
    • Posts 9
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Buttonless remote

    I agree, a lot of living rooms are clutered with remotes doing al sorts of functions but which start to look quite ugly.

    Most companies tried to solve it with "universal remotes" but in that proces the loose the simplicity.

    They start with an empty box. Sometimes it is good to think one step back litterally out of the box.

    I believe this consept is a gimick for youngsters, and a dream for the elderly.

    As it was with black and white TV's we still live in the black or light area. However with the arrival of powerfull LEDs, finaly we will step out of the ages were light controlls were limited to dimmers. The first colour adjustable lights are entering the market (e.g. Living colours lamp).  They need to be controlled somehow. This remote is an elegant option.

     

  • 11-28-2009 12:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    TripEnglish:
    complex home systems of today

    It is a neat concept.

    I wonder whether a multi-touch device offers more potential:

    • two dimensions
    • up to 4 fingers in each dimension (8 commands)
    • tap and double-tap
    • pinch and expand

    Be nice to see this concept built into PhilLondon's new interface for the BeoPort ...

     

    ? one light bulb ?

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 11-28-2009 12:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Bikkel, Beo already have a very good universal remote. I only have one remote on my coffee table.

     

    I'm not criticizing your remote, but in all fairness, I can't see how it would get any attention. It's a computer mouse. Limited control. 

    -I need access to Radio, DTV, DVD, CD and AUX inputs weekly,

    -I need access to my DVR almost daily,

    -I switch between "Speaker1" and "Speaker3" options daily,

    -I set recordings from my EPG and need to display additional info from the EPG daily,

    -I pause, play, stop,

    -Turn lights off, on and choose preset light levels in my living room daily.

    -I Change between picture formats weekly,

    -I don't have a motorized stand, but many of us here do.

    -I do countless other controls, and mentioning 10 more of these commands is easy: numbers 0-9.

     

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 1:04 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Let me defend Bikkel's remote a little more than I was initially inclined to:

     

    My wife and I are in the very early stages of building a house. We agree that the house should be a reflection of how we want to live. It may be five years or more before we actually move in, but in the design process we have decided to do a sort of survey as to how we currently live, how we would like to live, and the best path (architecturally speaking) to make that happen. 

    It has lead to some astonishing concessions and a sever departure from how we live today. One of the things that we started with was a quote from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, where a client of the architect describes "A house he has to live up to."

    So when I hear about switching from Speaker 2 to Speaker 4 on a daily basis and other such fiddling I can't help but to think if we could all hit the pause button and rearrange the pieces on the board, our lives would look nothing like today where we've slowly become accustomed to fuss and complexity like the proverbial frog in the boiling water.

    While the Bikkel concept may seem incompatible with our lives at present, it's a bold statement as to what life should be and speaks to the very definition of what "better" truly means.

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 11-28-2009 1:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Trip,

    I agree, yes, Bikkel is definitely trying to make our life easier, by simplifying things. (I think) Just as Apple has been trying to simplify computers to be more customer friendly, making a product ready-out-of-the-box, with a super UI. However, in Apples case they managed to simplify across the board, not just the remote. If we want to make our Beogear more user friendly, "thinking out of the box" shouldn't start with the remote. It's like making Windows easier to use by changing our mouse to a Mighty Mouse, won't help.

    In my case, I switch between speaker options, simply because living in a flat, with neighbors all around, and continuing booming after 11pm with Beolab5's on wouldn't be too kind to neighbors. Laughing

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 1:56 PM In reply to

    • Bikkel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-28-2009
    • Posts 9
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Buttonless remote

    If you look at the details it is definitely not a altered computer mouse. I thought out of the box. I am in search for the ultimate in simplicity.

    Let's compare:
    When you change the volume or change channels, (this is were the average user uses his remote for). Let analyze:

    1) You have to pick up the remote.

    2) You have to direct it the the equipment you want to control (in case of infrared).

    3) Now you have to look and find the right button to press.

    4) Press the right button.

    5) Put the remote back at its place. (I guess you don't sit with the remote in your hand all night).

    Now lets count. You just performed 5 actions.

    With this new concept you can do all that with one action.
    Most people grew up with a 2 button radio. And are familiar with the old fashioned analog dial to control the volume.
    See it from this way. There was nothing wrong with the old fashioned dial button. At the time the remote was invented the concept i suppose was simply not possible.

    To compare it with a mouse is wrong for the following reason:
    A mouse is a pointing device and has a direction.
    This Bikkel concept has no direction. You might think, what's the point.
    If you sit on the other site of the table and you turn the Bikkel, the result is exactly the same as someone on the other site. This again adds to simplicity. So as long as i can find this Bikkel in the dark, i know how it will react when i rotate or circle it.

     

     

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 2:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    "When you change the volume or change channels, (this is were the average user uses his remote for). Let analyze:

    1) You have to pick up the remote."

    -Yes, but I usually have it very close by

    "2) You have to direct it the the equipment you want to control (in case of infrared)."

    -No, are you familiar with B&O infrared? It's much stronger than any competitor I have ever handled. I don't need to aim it.

    "3) Now you have to look and find the right button to press."

    -In my case, I don't have to look at the Beo4 at all, it's in my muscle memory, since It's a remote that has been the same for over 15 years, and don't have to look at my Beo5 either, since every button often used is right around the wheel (ipod type).

    "4) Press the right button."

    -Are we getting lazy? Laughing

    "5) Put the remote back at its place. (I guess you don't sit with the remote in your hand all night)."

    -I can't see how this makes my life more difficult. 

     

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 2:19 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Bikkel:

    2) You have to direct it the the equipment you want to control (in case of infrared).

    Wrong forum for that one point; the B&O devices can usually pick the remote signal from just about any direction and after a couple of bounces off walls... Stick out tongue

    A nice idea though - but just like the other posters, I'm concerned about how you really could use that as the only remote (look up Beo 1 for an idea about how oversimplification will fail in practice). Some more gestures and you well need an instruction sheet beside your egg!

    -mika

  • 11-28-2009 2:23 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    tournedos:

    Bikkel:

    2) You have to direct it the the equipment you want to control (in case of infrared).

    Wrong forum for that one point; the B&O devices can usually pick the remote signal from just about any direction and after a couple of bounces off walls... Stick out tongue

    A nice idea though - but just like the other posters, I'm concerned about how you really could use that as the only remote (look up Beo 1 for an idea about how oversimplification will fail in practice). Some more gestures and you well need an instruction sheet beside your egg!

    Yes, I can't even remember the gestures to my Mac! 

    And honestly you couldn't do all that you mentioned above in just one step with the Bikkel, I would count:

    1 reach for the Bikkel

    2 swivel it around

    3 let go of the Bikkel

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 2:28 PM In reply to

    • Bikkel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-28-2009
    • Posts 9
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Buttonless remote

    The Bikkel you don't even have to pick up from the table.

  • 11-28-2009 2:30 PM In reply to

    • Bikkel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-28-2009
    • Posts 9
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Even the way you count, it is 5 versus 3 in favour of the Bikkel.

  • 11-28-2009 2:33 PM In reply to

    • Bikkel
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-28-2009
    • Posts 9
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Buttonless remote

    If you rely on mussle memory to memorise how to operate it you must have practised a lot. What a waist.

  • 11-28-2009 2:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    I wish you good luck in your endeavor with the Bikkel, however, it's worth remembering changing peoples habits is not easy, and might even be impossible, however good the concept might be.

    If we would count everything in "steps to do to get it done", I guess we would still sit around campfires and sleep in caves. 

    Don't want to be harsh to you, you have invented something I couldn't have done, but I'm not convinced. Are you going to manufacture and sell it yourself or are you trying to sell the idea as a invention to a established company?

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 2:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Bikkel:

    If you rely on mussle memory to memorise how to operate it you must have practised a lot. What a waist.

    Of course a remote is often used, how could your Bikkel change the fact that I want to turn the volume down of my TV during commercials? Laughing

    Waste of what? 

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 11-28-2009 2:52 PM In reply to

    • stefan
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • 200 miles from Struer
    • Posts 1,733
    • Founder

    Re: Buttonless remote

    I don`t even have to pick up my Beo4/5, BL1000/5000/7000. It is possible to control all Beo devices even if your remote is located on the table, sofa,  or in the wall holder. You don`t have to point it to the device.

    I think, the main problem is that you do not have any experiences with Beo. If you had, you knew, why Beo users can`t be impressed by the Bikkel remote - sorry.

    Stefan

  • 11-28-2009 3:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    bayerische:

    If we want to make our Beogear more user friendly, "thinking out of the box" shouldn't start with the remote. 

    I'm going to defend Bikkel one more time and then he's on his own!

    Personally I think that the interface (remote in this case) is exactly where you start. Start being the operative word. The way a person interacts should drive the design and if we can reduce the buttons on the remote where operations are complex and resource intensive (I'm using the term "intensive" relatively!) to the screen where the interface can be laid out more intuitively than that should be the direction. Bayerische is right to cite Apple's approach in making the button essentially an up/down/left/right/go affair and relegating other navigation to the screen where the interface requires fewer compromises.

    All that being said, if this was presented at my university where I studied interface design, it would be torn limb from limb in the crit phase, but the approach is admirable and one that is seldom undertaken. To throw away the "legacy" components of a product and build it from scratch as though the idea was just conceived is sometimes a worthwhile undertaking and will always find a niche market of individuals who are open to a truly unique use experience.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 11-28-2009 4:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    Nice job actually, I like it.

  • 11-28-2009 4:52 PM In reply to

    • Stonk
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
    • Marlow, Bucks, UK
    • Posts 1,688
    • Founder

    Re: Buttonless remote

    I love any new approach to an everyday object to make our lives easy. However, unless I misunderstood the Bikkle, I understand you have to use it on a flat surface. That means that when ever I want to change tracks, adjust volume etc. I have to lean forward to operate it. You are in effect tied to the coffee table or desk.

    A remote should be just that - able to change volumes, channels and tracks from the comfort of your armchair and not have to lean forward each time.

    Great idea though.

     

     

                                                                                                  

    If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments.

  • 11-28-2009 7:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    bayerische:

    1 reach for the Bikkel

    2 swivel it around

    3 let go of the Bikkel

    That is just about the funniest thing I have read in ...oh... 6 months! Thanks Andreas.

    LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

     

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 11-28-2009 7:48 PM In reply to

    Re: Buttonless remote

    burantek:

    bayerische:

    1 reach for the Bikkel

    2 swivel it around

    3 let go of the Bikkel

    That is just about the funniest thing I have read in ...oh... 6 months! Thanks Andreas.

    LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

     

    How did I scroll past that one!?

    "Let go of the Bikkel" is going to be my new mantra!Big Smile

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

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