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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-05-2009 3:15 AM by Alex. 18 replies.
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  • 12-28-2008 11:14 PM

    • BeoNut1
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    BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Dear Gang,

    I'm still in the process of building my dream A/V system (i.e. I haven't purchased anything yet, still planning).  I plan on submitting another post on this forum with more and better worded questions regarding this proposed A/V system in the near future as I'm realizing that there's still much I don't know about B&O, and I'm going to need help from you guys.  However, I've got one question which is really bothering me that I was hoping to get answered first:

    I desire to use a BV-7 Mark IV (when it comes out) hooked to BL5s and essentially feed this system via an Apple TV.  I have presumed (probably wrongly) that because the BV-7 can play CDs in it's DVD / BR player it can function as an audio master and power BL5 speakers via a digital co-axial from the BeoSystem 3 just like the BC-2 and the BS9000 function with these speakers.  Is this erroneous thinking on my part?  I ask as I'd like to avoid purchasing a conventional audio head unit as all my media is stored digitally on hard drives.

    TIA,

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 12-28-2008 11:33 PM In reply to

    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    This is a great question and one that often confounds customers and green sales associates alike!

    The answer depends on how or if you plan to grow your system beyond the one room. While the BeoVision 7 will play CDs in the internal drive and output digitally (as it will use the same pathways as if a DVD were in use), it will not act as an Audio Master in the link sense. In other words, if you expanded your system to other rooms, you would not be able to press CD to play the CD (a minor inconvenience admittedly), but most importantly you will not be able to bring audio sources like N.MUSIC & N.RADIO on board through a product like BeoPort as they require a true Audio Master to distribute them around the link network.

    Other board members can probably expound on the 3rd party workarounds for link, especially since you're using AppleTV as your main source of content delivery, but this is the B&O implication of leaving a true Audio Master out. 

    You won't have too much longer to wait for the MkIV, either! 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-29-2008 12:21 AM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Trip,

    Thank you for your response.  That's good news from my perspective.  Having the BV7/BS3 combo serve as an audio master in a Master Link set-up isn't my intention or need (Apple has wirelessly that solved for me).  I just wanted to reassure myself that there wouldn't be anything lost in the way of audio if using the BR player in the BV-7 Mark IV.  I somehow started remembering that the BC2 and BS9000 were the only audio devices in the B&O line up to make full use of the digital inputs on the BL5s and that started me to wondering if I would somehow slight myself by relying on the BS3 as my audio source to the BL5s.  I also wondered about things like the BR player in the BV7 being able to distinguish a CD from a DVD or BR disc and just turn on the front stereo speakers and not the center channel, etc.

    Incidentally, how much better do you think the digital-to-analogue convertors in the BS3 than in something like the BV8 (my current TV)?  I plan on hooking the Apple TV to the BS3 via an HDMI cable and let bring my digital audio and video media in to the BS3 for appropriate dispersement.

     

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 12-29-2008 3:20 AM In reply to

    • Mico
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    BeoNut1:

    ... and power BL5 speakers via a digital co-axial from the BeoSystem 3 just like the BC-2 and the BS9000 function with these speakers.  Is this erroneous thinking on my part?  I ask as I'd like to avoid purchasing a conventional audio head unit as all my media is stored digitally on hard drives.

    Sorry to let you down partially. BS3 does not have SPDIF (Digital Coaxial) output, only input. The only way to connect the speakers are Powerlink sockets.

  • 12-29-2008 7:41 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    So, does that mean that the sound quality would be worse if I just used the BS3 via Powerlink cables to run the BL5s as opposed to introducing a B&O audio source that I somehow had the Apple TV connected to and which was in turn connected to the BL5s via digital coaxial cables?

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 01-04-2009 4:43 AM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Anyone?
    Mark D
  • 01-04-2009 6:33 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Essentially yes, although bear in mind that if you connected an Apple TV to the A.Aux input on a BeoSound 9000 or similar, the signal would not be passed to the BeoLab 5s digitally.

    I would look at your options. What are you going to listen to more musically, CD or Digital Media? If it's Digital Media, what quality is your music library? If it isn't lossless, I would simply connect a good DAC to the Apple TV and run it through the A.Aux input. If it is lossless, then you may want to consider connecting the digital output of the Apple TV to the digital input of the BeoLab 5, although this will present yet more issues, particularly how would the BeoLab 5 behave when watching a movie. Would it revert to the PowerLink input, or continue using the digital input? Roger or Soundproof may be able to answer this one.

    From a personal point of view, I would connect the digital connection to say, a BeoSound 9000 for true 'high end' listening, and then my Apple TV would simply connect straight into the BeoSystem 3/BeoVision 7-40 and use the DACs built into that.

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  • 01-04-2009 8:53 AM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Alex,

    Thank you for your response.  You've raised some questions that I've pondered, too.  As my ultimate goal with this set-up is to have a minimalistic amount of equipment, but at the same time not sacrifice sound or image quality, I'll re-word the questions that we've raised and present to the group to see what everyones' thoughts are as these questions will undoubtedly become more pertinant in the future as more people take this route in terms of their A/V set-up.  Let's assume that we'll be using Apple lossless files and that we're trying to go all digital in terms of pathway if at all possible.

    -is there a way to connect the optical out port of the Apple TV to the BL5s (either with or without an audio "head" unit like the BS9000)?

    -if so, could you control volume easily?

    -also, how would the Apple TV know to switch back to the HDMI cable for things other than pure audio?

    -in the proposed BV7 / BL5 / Apple TV / possible audio head unit set-up, if you left out the audio head unit (BS9000), would the BV7's Beosystem 3 allow it to play music via BL5s hooked to the BV7 without the TV being on (I would use an iPhone or iTouch to see and control the music coming from the Apple TV in this case).

     TIA,

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 01-04-2009 9:52 AM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    The simplest solution here is to hook things up the 'B&O way'.  AppleTV to BS-3/BV-7 via HDMI, BS/BV to BL-5's via PowerLink.  Keep in mind that the ATV's design brief is really to deliver iTMS products to the living room, which means (at best right now) 256kbps music, and 720p video.  Yes, I know about lossless...I'm talking about 'intended use' here.  When the time comes to add a 'high quality digital audio source', you will be able to choose from the BS-9000, BR-2, and the BM-5, with or without the BS-5. 

    On a budget?  Scour the web (or Lee's shop!) for a used 4500, 5500, 6500, or 7000 BM/CD combo and a BeoLink converter.  All of those cd drives have the coax S/PDIF output.  And I wouldn't get the jitters about the quality of a well maintained used set.

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

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  • 01-04-2009 11:06 AM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Russ,

    As always, thank you.  Incidentally, you can't seem to get away from my long-winded questions!  Sorry about that, but please know that your help is much appreciated.

    I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly as I seem to be getting mixed messages about digital output to the BL5s.  Bringing a B&O audio master in to the equation with a coax S/PDIF output will make for better quality audio?  If so, in this type of set-up, are you suggesting that the optical out of the Apple TV would input in to the B&O audio master?  I ask as I've gotten the impression that introducing one of these CD players in to the equation would give me digital outputs to the BL5s, but at the expense of introducing an analogue link in to the chain.

    Sorry I'm so easily confused.

    Mark 

     

     

    Mark D
  • 01-04-2009 12:18 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Using a B&O master such as the BeoSound 9000 will allow best quality on CD as only the digital information from the CD player is passed out to the SPDIF connection, while the BeoSound 5 would allow best quality when listening to digital media.

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  • 01-04-2009 12:58 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Alex,

    Once again, thank you (any and all advice appreciated).  But, I get that part - that a CD played in the BS9000 hooked to the digital / optical inputs of the BL5s will give optimal sound reproduction for a CD.  However, if we don't include a CD in the equation (and no BS5 either), only lossless files from the Apple TV, what's the best way to get optimal sound from these digital files?  Is it to run it through a BS9000 or other audio master unit with SPDIF outputs or will that only put another, unnecessary "link" between the source and the sound reproduction?  In other words, is it worth it to purchase a BS9000 or other audio master unit just to utilize the digital inputs of the BL5s?

    TIA,

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 01-04-2009 1:12 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Running it through a BeoSound 9000 would do nothing to the sound from an Apple TV, the BeoSound 9000 only outputs a digital signal when listening to a CD.

    To see why the digital input on the BeoLab 5 produces a better sound, you need to understand what's actually going on in terms of digital signal flow.

    When listening to a CD with no digital connection, the audio is going from the CD, being converted to analogue, going through tone control and loudness circuits in the BeoSound (all of which will add a small amount of distortion) and then going through the volume control in the BeoSound. From here it travels do the BeoLab 5, where it is converted back into a digital signal (which results in more distortion again), processed by the BeoLab 5 and the converted back into analogue, passed through the BeoLab 5's own volume control and passed to the amplifiers.

    Every stage in this chain results in a small amount of distortion, but it eventually adds up. Using the digital link effectively allows you to bypass all the sound circuitry in the BeoSound and rely entirely on that in the BeoLab 5. The sound is never converted to analogue in the first place - it goes straight from the CD to the BeoLab 5.

    When connecting an Apple TV to the BeoSound 9000, it will be a completely analogue connection. In order to get the best sound out of the Apple TV, it should be connected directly to the BeoLab 5 by it's digital connection, and the BeoLab 5 will control the volume itself. However, this is quite a quirky way of doing things and will result in complications. The Apple TV will ALWAYS output a digital signal to the BeoLab 5 which could confuse them if they receive a signal they don't understand.

    I would personally just connect the HDMI from the Apple TV into the BeoVision 7 or BeoSystem 3, and connect the PowerLink from the BeoVision/System into the BeoLab 5, and use a BeoSound 5 if you want digital media in high quality through the BeoLab 5.

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  • 01-04-2009 4:00 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Alex,

    Thank you - once again.  I understand much better now, and I also see that my vision of trying to get a purely digital signal from the Apple TV to the BL5s is impractical unless B&O does the sensical thing and integrates the BS5 better with iTunes than we anticipate B&O doing.

    Let me ask you this as a side question:  If I set up the BV7 / BS3 / Apple TV / BL5s as you describe, can I make it such that the BV7 screen stays off when I'm listening to music only (in which case I'd use my iPhone or iTouch to peruse and select music rather than the TV's LCD)?

    Also, as a practical matter, how much better are the DACs in the BV7 / BS3 compared to my BV8?  In other words, if I were to hook BL5s to my BV8 via the powerlink cables and source the Apple TV via the HDMI, would the resulting sound quality be roughly equivical to using the much more expensive BV7 / BS3?

    TIA,

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 01-04-2009 5:27 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    The issue seems to be that you want the digital out put from 2 different sources to go to the BeoLab 5's.  As pointed out earlier, the BeoSystem 3/BV-7 doesn't supply this output, and there's only one digital input on the 5's. 

    In a pure B&O setup the 5's will only look for the digital input when the source is 'CD".  That's it.  In a non-B&O set-up when turned on (by pressing 'radio' on the remote), the 5's will check the digital input and stay there if it is 'hot'.  

     In your case there is no easy way to convert the TOS-link output from the ATV to coax S/PDIF, feed that to the 5's while bypassing the BS-3 entirely, which also makes it tough to control volume.

    My advice would be to bith the bullet and admit that B&O (and Apple, really) see the ATV as a multi media device focused on TV and surround sound, which happen to be able to deliver goo-but-not-great 2-channel audio as well.  For pure digital audio, in addition to the video Master, one needs a B&O CD audio source.

    I'm sure that there are work-arounds, but as I noted earlier, I am most interested in 'intended use' for all of the equipment.  
     

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 01-04-2009 6:08 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    BeoNut1:

    Let me ask you this as a side question:  If I set up the BV7 / BS3 / Apple TV / BL5s as you describe, can I make it such that the BV7 screen stays off when I'm listening to music only (in which case I'd use my iPhone or iTouch to peruse and select music rather than the TV's LCD)?

    Yes, but this would require a Beo5 remote. Essentially, the Beo5 would have to be programmed such that upon entering 'Apple TV music' mode, it follows with a 'P.Mute' command (easily programmable, although I can't remember exactly the command name in the config tool). The only slight issue with this is that the Beo5 would need to be programmed with an 'exit Apple TV Music' command on it's display, to send out the command to disable the 'P.Mute' function, to re-enable the display on your television. Going back into the sources display on the Beo5 and choosing another source would result in nothing in the television display. Ultimately, this is why I believe it would be a little fiddly, and why I personally believe you would be best off with a BeoSound 5! Store everything in WAV format with iTunes and you will be on the home run with no real issues! The cost of a BeoSound 5 in relationship to the overall cost of your system would be small in order to achieve high-quality digital music with a interface-to-boot. Apple TV seems quite boring in comparison to the BeoSound 5. I say this as an Apple TV owner and advocate.

    BeoNut1:

    Also, as a practical matter, how much better are the DACs in the BV7 / BS3 compared to my BV8?  In other words, if I were to hook BL5s to my BV8 via the powerlink cables and source the Apple TV via the HDMI, would the resulting sound quality be roughly equivical to using the much more expensive BV7 / BS3?

    TIA,

    Mark 

    The DACs in the BeoVision 7-40 mk3/BeoSystem 3 are quite a leap up from those found in the BeoVision 8. The BeoSystem 3 is designed to be 'the be-all-and-end-all' of AV systems, and I believe it fits the job description well. Having listened to the sound produced by BeoSystem 3 PowerLink sockets with stereo audio on everything from BeoLab 6000s to BeoLab 9s quite extensively, I can happily state that I find the quality of sound produced to be very very good indeed. I've never actually listened to Beolab 5s producing good stereo audio through the BeoSystem 3's processor, but BeoLab 9s seem sufficiently transparent to highlight any possible flaws in the audio processing! For what it is worth, I am especially looking forward to the latest version of the BeoSystem 3 which contains a very unique sound processor!

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  • 01-04-2009 7:23 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Alex,

    Thank you - you're really giving me some good insights that I (obviously) didn't previously appreciate.  I figured that the BS3 would be able to bypass the TV with certain sources, but what you're saying makes sense - how would the BS3, or any other processor for that matter, be able to distinguish between video and audio sources when they're both coming in via HDMI from the Apple TV.

    OK, if I added a BS5 to my (hypothetical, not-yet-taken-out-the-bank-loan) system consisting of BV7 / BS3 / BL5 / Apple TV, I could have pure digital output to the BL5s as I desire, I could forego the BS9000 (and simply use the CD/DVD/BR player on the BV7 when I want to play a CD), and I could also keep my beloved Beo4.  Right?

    I would lose the ability to peruse music via my iPhone as the BS5 would be the audio source.  Correct?

    Is the WAV format in iTunes "lossless"?  I always think of Microsoft when I hear of that format - is it Microsoft and does iTunes play this format well?

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 01-05-2009 12:23 AM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

     BeoNut1:

    Let me ask you this as a side question:  If I set up the BV7 / BS3 / Apple TV / BL5s as you describe, can I make it such that the BV7 screen stays off when I'm listening to music only (in which case I'd use my iPhone or iTouch to peruse and select music rather than the TV's LCD)?

     

    Yes, but this would require a Beo5 remote. Essentially, the Beo5 would have to be programmed such that upon entering 'Apple TV music' mode, it follows with a 'P.Mute' command (easily programmable, although I can't remember exactly the command name in the config tool). The only slight issue with this is that the Beo5 would need to be programmed with an 'exit Apple TV Music' command on it's display, to send out the command to disable the 'P.Mute' function, to re-enable the display on your television. Going back into the sources display on the Beo5 and choosing another source would result in nothing in the television display. Ultimately, this is why I believe it would be a little fiddly, and why I personally believe you would be best off with a BeoSound 5! Store everything in WAV format with iTunes and you will be on the home run with no real issues! The cost of a BeoSound 5 in relationship to the overall cost of your system would be small in order to achieve high-quality digital music with a interface-to-boot.

     

    Alex,

     

    What about this: Is there an easy way to bring the Toslink optical out from the Apple TV in to the BS9000?  If the answer were "yes", and if the BS3 would allow you select "Aux" from the BS9000 without turning on the BV7 screen, I could maybe hook the Apple TV via HDMI to the BS3 and then have a second line out from the Toslink of the Apple TV to the BS9000.  That way, I could turn on the audio-master (i.e. BS9000), power up it's Aux input, and peruse my music collection via the iPhone / iTouch.

     

     

    Mark D
  • 01-05-2009 3:15 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BV7 / BS3 question regarding audio

    Not possible unfortunately! The BeoSound 9000 only has an analog input, no digital input. The only digital connection is the direct output from the CD mechanism itself.

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