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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 12-13-2008 11:14 AM by Russ. 179 replies.
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  • 12-04-2008 8:47 AM

    • Kokomo
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    The B&O problem?

    This morning I was looking in to the window of a local TV shop here in Spain and side by side were two sets. One a 46" Leowe and the other a 46" Panasonic. Now whilst I concede the Leowe ,which was in white, looked a little more 'designer' to my eyes, it was €3000 more than the Panasonic. Standing there I tried to put myself into the mind of a potential customer.  Unless I was a customer intending for the Leowe to be connected to further Leowe products, I must say I couldn't see why I would ever be tempted to pay all this extra money, compared to the Panasonic and for a TV which in all likelihood would be 'out of date' in technology terms in little more than a year or so.  

    Last week I was taking to my son-in-law who told me he was going out that day to buy a new Samsung 46" TV to replace his Sony Plasma. Somewhat tongue in cheek I said to him "have you thought about Bang & Olufsen, they look fabulous and will last you for years?" (he has owned a B&O TV). After he had stopped laughing (honestly) he told me he was already expecting to have to replace the new Samung in the next 1 to 2 years, so what was the point.

    Just a couple of tales which, in my opinion, illustrates the modern day dilemma for B&O to be able sell to those other than the quite or very wealthy which was not the case in the past.

    Of course, I fully accept that this may be their marketing strategy and which may prove to be successful and profitable.    

  • 12-04-2008 9:00 AM In reply to

    • Roger
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    The price issue is an eternal theme on this forum. I guess you can look at it from different point of views - you can acknowledge the fact that a BeoVision customer will replace her set less often than a regular highstreet customer and you can acknowledge the fact that you can actually trade in your used BeoVision later on.

    But, as with cars, you can focus only on the number of wheels or fuel consumption. Not all do, which I guess Aston Martin is quite happy with. How can you justify a Mercedes over a Ford, as engine technology and gadgets take a quantum jump every five years or so?

    Roger

  • 12-04-2008 9:35 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    All the more reason that B&O better be Very sensitive to this enthusiast customer base.  Start with a config tool for users of Beo 5.

    Next, better communication.

    Barry

  • 12-04-2008 9:53 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    I agree with some of the points you make Roger, but the car analogy doesn't quite stack up. I drive a Jaguar XJ6, which is now a number of years old. In style, ride and performance terms it is little different than the latest model, other than the body of the latest car being made of aluminum rather than steel, a slight re-style and the inclusion now of more electronic 'gadgets' within it. In its basic function however, it is still up there with the best.

    The primary function of a TV set is to display a TV picture. Period.

    Sound, build and style are of course very important also and any price premium should reflect superiority in all the above qualities. Leaving aside the question of whether a B&O set does or does not produce a superior picture than some competitors, if, for the purpose of argument, it does at the moment, that is not much consolation if in a year or so's time, in this one respect, it finds itself behind the best of the 'competition'.  

    I realise however I am on somewhat sticky ground combining 'build quality' and Jaguars of previous years in the same posting!

    Wink 

     

  • 12-04-2008 10:11 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    kokomo:

    The primary function of a TV set is to display a TV picture. Period.

    My TV is on a couple of hours a day, so ist main function is... to decorate my living room ;-)

  • 12-04-2008 6:46 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I think it will be interesting to review this post in say 12 and 24 months time with the current world-wide economic turndown:-

    That companies that produce flat-screen TVs weren't making any money in 2007/8 certainly wont be doing so now and at least in 2009 and probably later. There will be less general demand.

    Will this anticipated lack of demand stifle LCD and Plasma development as more people make do with their "budget" sets for longer?

    Will a flat screen which was typically current for 6 months now be current for 12, 24 or 36 months as loss making screen manufacturers reduce R&D and cut volume?

    B&O will be by no means immune but may fare significantly better (profitable, large margin, can cut production/R&D easily and cheaply) or will they suffer more than most (small company / high overheads / luxury segment electronics).

    I guess the proper question is - although the rate that flat screens have developed technologically-wise is real, is the price that is charged sustainable for these large companies to sustain their market share when they no longer have volume to shore-up their costs - never mind profit?

    10%

     

     

  • 12-04-2008 10:45 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    After a long hiatus, I thought I'd wade back in. 

    I think Mr. 10%'s point is a very interesting one. I wonder if it's an issue of prolonged economic success that lead people to such fickle purchasing habits. It's amazing that people purchase flat panel TVs (which are only now beginning to come down to where tube televisions were when plasmas first came on the market) with the intention of taking them out to the curb in a few years. Isn't $1,000 still $1,000? 

    I think that too many people confuse making an investment with eternal youth. I can't think of anything, save maybe a diamond, that isn't made somewhat obsolete by objects that succeed it. Better materials, better form factors, better performance, and more "up to date" styling will eventually make nearly any item objectively inferior. The point of an investment is not always to retain a monetary value or a technological or cultural currency, but to acquire something that brings you some joy or satisfaction. A nice watch, a bottle of wine to drink on a future anniversary, an automobile, or even a television can bring someone immeasurable joy while being simultaneously impractical in other ways.

    If I count all of the electronics through the ages that have engaged me in some way or even momentarily arrested my attention it would be an exclusive list. A Brionvega tv and radio, a Tivoli Model 1, a MacBook Air, and the original iPod are a few, but I genuinely can't think of as many non-Bang & Olufsen products as we have in our current portfolio let alone the past generations still dutifully serving in homes around the world. 

    I guess what I'm saying is that I like us the way we are! We're fussy and always a few steps behind. But I'll be damned if 90% of what we build isn't worthy of a place in a museum. The collection I've amassed brings me as much joy as a wine cellar or a Bugatti in the garage so why on earth would I want my beloved company to become another Samsung just so a few more people could afford the brand!? If we listened to the complaints on this board, even the majority ones, you wouldn't want us anymore. I know I wouldn't. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-04-2008 11:09 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Well said Trip and welcome back. I hope all is well or at least better?
    .
    Alex and myself were a little short-handed defending the BS5 over the last couple of weeks.
    .
    I'm sure you can colour it up a little now you are back? The water is lovely and warm!
    .
    10%
  • 12-04-2008 11:14 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Good to be back! If the BeoSound 5 thread rears its head again, I'll be sure to dive in. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-05-2008 11:27 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    TripEnglish:
    Good to be back! If the BeoSound 5 thread rears its head again, I'll be sure to dive in. 

    Welcome back Trip.  There is more than a Beosound 5 thread.  We have a Beosound 5 forum for you to check out.  It was fairly lively until recently but it is good reading.  It is indeed true Mr10percent and Alex did a brilliant job defending the Beosound 5.

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 12-05-2008 12:42 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Well, at least it is a lot of reading... I found it to be the most hostile corner of Beoworld Indifferent

    (which, fortunately, still is not too bad Smile )

    -mika

  • 12-06-2008 4:07 AM In reply to

    • saf
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    kokomo:

    I agree with some of the points you make Roger, but the car analogy doesn't quite stack up. I drive a Jaguar XJ6, which is now a number of years old. In style, ride and performance terms it is little different than the latest model, other than the body of the latest car being made of aluminum rather than steel, a slight re-style and the inclusion now of more electronic 'gadgets' within it. In its basic function however, it is still up there with the best. 

    Could not help myself, as I think the car analogy (I generally don't like such analogies) seems to work quite fine for me:

    Your Jag: Avant/BV5

    The latest Jag model: BV9/BS3 + BV4

    Smile

  • 12-06-2008 5:19 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Great post Trip, I agree with almost all you had to say, so long as we can both agree DVD2 is far off being worthy of a place in a museum ... perhaps the bin is more suitable Laughing
  • 12-06-2008 5:25 AM In reply to

    • ed7
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    as much ias i hate to say it i do not think B&O will here for too long!!!!!Sad not the way we know it!!![:'(] with this bad recession/depression hope i am wrong but i think been given enough rope to hung themselves!!Unsure
  • 12-06-2008 6:20 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    20 years ago, when I discovered B&O, the whole range was priced approximately at 200% compared to the most expensive non B&O product with similar specs.

    Nowadays, it reaches 1000% on some products!

    To me this is the B&O problem.

    TBS, former CEO, once said in an interview, talking about re-branded products, that his BeoSound 6 was to the Samsung product, what the Porsche Cayenne was to the VW Touareg: well noted, but the Cayenne isn't 4 times more expensive than the Touareg!

    Reunion Island is greeting you!

  • 12-06-2008 6:35 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    That was one reason I started this thread and you make my point very well I think Chris.

    I have owned B&O products for the past 20 years and when I bought my first B&O TV, yes it was expensive compared to the others available, but it had a build feel, quality & design which made it in my opinion a worthwhile investment. BUT, it was about twice the price compared to the rest, not 7, 8 or more times as expensive as some products are now!

  • 12-06-2008 7:26 AM In reply to

    • stotty1111
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    A rather simplistic view would be that we now live in a more 'throw away' age and as such modern consumer products reflect that - B&O spend time perfecting the product, hence no absolute leading edge kit, however I do not defend the price of B&O kit at its present levels - a future view would be a dramatic reduction in outlets, lines and a definite bias to 'well heeled' clientelle in the shot / medium term future!

    With this as a premise I can foresee the demise of the brand in its current state!

    Tony

    I always try to operate using/following the KISS principle --  Keep it simple stupid!

  • 12-06-2008 10:55 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I think someone needs to check their math. The BeoVison 4-65 is currently $13,500 USD. The current commercial Panasonic model is $8,900 USD. That's roughly a 35% premium. 

    The VW Touareg starts at $39,300 USD and the Porsche Cayenne S starts at $59,900 USD. That's, uh, about 35%. I think we need to dial down the 1000% increase arguments. Even items (horrible items) like the BeoSound 6 only seem to cost more due to the inclusion of A8s.

    Don't take that as a defense of TBS, but frankly, of all the issues threatening to sink the ship, price is not one of them.

    (And yes, the DVD 2 would be among the many items we could use to hold the museum doors open!) 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-06-2008 11:10 AM In reply to

    • saf
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    TripEnglish:

    Don't take that as a defense of TBS, but frankly, of all the issues threatening to sink the ship, price is not one of them.

    Even Trip is now in a defensively pesimist (sceptical) mode?!

  • 12-06-2008 11:17 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    TripEnglish:

    I think someone needs to check their math. The BeoVison 4-65 is currently $13,500 USD. The current commercial Panasonic model is $8,900 USD. That's roughly a 35% premium. 

    The VW Touareg starts at $39,300 USD and the Porsche Cayenne S starts at $59,900 USD. That's, uh, about 35%. I think we need to dial down the 1000% increase arguments. Even items (horrible items) like the BeoSound 6 only seem to cost more due to the inclusion of A8s.

    Don't take that as a defense of TBS, but frankly, of all the issues threatening to sink the ship, price is not one of them.

    (And yes, the DVD 2 would be among the many items we could use to hold the museum doors open!) 

    You may well be correct with your math(s), but I can assure you 65" TVs are not what your 'normal' consumer is in the market for, at least in Europe so the comparison, whilst it may be accurate, is somewhat irrelevant.  Have you noticed a recession? Maybe even a depression? Ford, Chrysler & GM are virtually bankrupt. OK so B&O may well ride this out and prosper, selling to the very well off, rather than the comfortably well off, but at the moment, and for the foreseeable future, that is a reducing customer target audience.   

  • 12-06-2008 11:29 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    But back to my point.....
    Is a Pioneer 50in Kuro really GBP 2200-2500 or is it priced at that level for market share at any cost?
    .
    Also bear in mind that the Yen has strengthened 40% against Sterling in the last 12 months.
    Cheaper screens, saturation market, competative R&D, strengthening Yen, decreasing high-street retail prices........
    It aint sustainable!
    10%
  • 12-06-2008 3:13 PM In reply to

    • Affineur
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    I grew up with B&O (which was very unusual in the US) and have owned B&O personally for the past 30 years. The products have always been expensive relative to virtually anything else available at the time (with the exception of the ridiculous "off the deep end" audiophile, and now videophile, products). What you always have in B&O, with a few exceptions (e.g. BS6), is a unique product with a clear focus on design, ergonomics, and quality. For this you pay a premium, sometimes as great as 4X. To those of us for whom design is central and performance is expected there are few other choices (particularly in the US). The current core product line (audio and video) at B&O continues with this approach and, in my mind justifies the pricing. As an example, I recently purchased a BV8 for a small second home. Being open to all options (but clearly biased toward B&O) I looked at everything available in the size/performance range of the BV8. After all the analysis was completed there was nothing that compared to the BV8 in terms of a combination of design, integration, sound quality, build quality, and potential for expansion. The BV8 was 4X more expensive than the closest competing product but not only do I enjoy looking at the set and interacting with it via the Beo4, I expect that I will keep it for many, many years just as I have kept other B&O products for at least 10 years. Solely based on design characteristics, no other set would continue to give the same visual and operational pleasure that the B&O set will. This gives me the confidence to pay the premium. In addition, I have recently added a pair of BL3s to the system; no other manufacturer offers the ability to so simply add such a high quality, fully integrated sound system with the exisisting product.

    There is one other thing about pricing that any socio-economist (or marketing expert) will tell you: branding and exclusivity are the most important element in marketing of luxury products. Volumes have been written about the squandering of brands with strategies of "extending the population of target customers" only to destroy the exclusivity that allowed for the R&D, design, materials, and build quaility of the products. B&O have recently had experience with this (Serene, BS6, and other products) and we have seen the results. I see the B&O brand as aspirational for design-centric individuals, primary for a certain segment of the audiophile/videophile population, and a relevant choice for wealthy individuals with either or both of the previous characteristics (design-centricity, "audiophile/videophileness").It appears that the new leadership is going in this direction.

    Although the automoblie analogy is not particularly good, I shall comment the the Porsche Cayenne is a potential example of brand destruction. I have owned Porche products since being given a 1959 356 "hand-me-down" from my father in 1972. The 911 is the true "core" product for Porsche and without it the company would fail. Although the Cayenne has become the overwheming best selling vehicle of the product group, it is not a Porsche (just as the BS6 is not B&O) to anyone who understands the uniqueness of the 911. Porsche has used the Cayenne (mainly via pricing as the base model is only a tad bit more expensive than a Touareg and therefore appeals to the aspirational segment of the Touareg customer base) to expand the target population (particularly to include more women) and as a result has diluted the meaning (and, unfortunately, the reality) of what a Porsche is. Enthusiasts can only hope that it goes away and the company re-focuses upon the sports car. Just as with B&O, the core product (the 911) is still a stunning performer true to the brand and we hope it stays that way.....  without the Cayenne (or Panamera). I expect the Cayenne to go away, perhaps slowly, as the current financial downturn forces re-examination of corporate product strategies. It seems B&O are in the throes of re-focusing and we wait to see what comes of it.

    Seek simplicity and distrust it. Alfred North Whitehead
  • 12-06-2008 4:02 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    My, albeit simplistic, take on it is, those that can will, those that would love to now can't, those that don't see it, will never.

    The middle sector is the worry, it can all go very wrong very quickly!

    The cans, will always.

    The don't knows, aren't a factor.

    The aspirationals were a significant market share but it's getting smaller as I type (especially in the TV sector)!

    I wonder if there are enough "cans" to keep a smallish European business afloat!

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-06-2008 4:06 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Yes.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-06-2008 4:19 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    TripEnglish:
    Yes.

    I had a moments "wobble" there 'coz Trip agreed with me.Big Smile

    I stand by what I said, we can speak about longevity in (the past) TV's but compare a BV7 MKI to a MKIII - picture quality is as different as chalk and cheese, they aren't upgradeable as people may like to think and most software "upgrades" are actually bug fixes - I defy anyone to tell me this is "top quality" (they may look nice but this isn't enough). Second hand prices for "old" B&O Plasmas and LCD's just can't maintain the Avant margins  - who would pay thousands now for a BV7 MKI???

    (Qualifier - I don't now own a B&O TV).

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

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