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I would be interested to know whether or not people agree that services like Spotify are the future of music?

As I type this I am listening to Roger Waters on Spotify on a Laptop that is in turn attached to my Beosystem 5000 and S45-2's . Compared to something like the Beosound 5 it is inferior in most respects but there is one potentially deal-clinching advantage. Rather than music I own being digitised and stored on hard disc, or played from removable media such as a CD when you use a service like Spotify there is no requirement for you to 'own' the music at all, it is simply there to be accessed as required. All I pay is a modest monthly subscription to avoid adverts and receive music at a slightly higher bitrate.

The quality is not perfect (But is good enough for non-critical listening), you can only stream one track at once and you still need to buy the music if you wish to use it on the move unless you own an iPhone/iPod touch. But these things will be overcome in time and other streaming music providers will be around too.

Thus represents a fundamental shift for manufacturers like B&O who will need to move away from devices that convert information stored on media to Audio to potentially providing devices that seamlessly access online services with a minimum of fuss. The recent focus on active speakers means that B&O are in some respects ahead of the game, but it will be interesting to see how B&O respond to this challenge over the next few years.

An interesting thought and provocative question.  Certainly I am finding technology is altering my viewing habits, so why not my listening habits?

Please forgive me for rambling in ignorance since I have no access to Spotify ... 

Some people are hoarders and like to "own" things.  Despite Steve Jobs saying "people do not wish to own movies" I still see people buying them.  And for example, why do I keep books I have read? why do I even buy them when there is a library within walking distance?

Some people are visual, look at the recent posts in the listening thread: the lovely LP covers; I still treasure my CDs for their visual artwork - and I get annoyed when iTunes picks a cover that does not match the one that is on my CD.

There is a question of ephemera (dare I add an "-bility" and murder the Queen's English?) ... it took me decades to replace my Dory Previn LPs with CDs.  So I am not sure I want to trust someone else to manage my ephemera ...

Will Gen X, Y and Z(?) long for their past and have "golden oldies", or will they only want the latest?  I suspect a lot of them will want to tap past memories: look at the box office successes of the Marvel and Transformer franchises.

So I am not sure Spotify et al will obsolete things ... but they clearly have a powerful addition to choice and convenience.

I still like to buy CDs and LPs. I am not a big fan of the digitalized music world of today. I need to have the music in my hands, if you can say so.

Digital music reminds me of something sloppy and careless, while analog music gives a more dedicated impression.

There is a certain feeling you get when you put on a record, rather than you push the 'play' button on your computer or whatever you might use.

I like to see myself as the young generation (20 years old), I am not sure I stand for the mainstream view on digital music but I know one thing for sure - I will always be true to analog music.

I really doubt it. The access one has on the internet to find almost any creative content cheaply and easily has torn the existing business model to shreds.

The likelihood as I see it is that we'll purchase "access" to media on an ongoing basis. Apple, Google, & Microsoft are already pushing cloud computing as a more efficient means of moving processing power around and it stands to reason that if we keep trying to put more and more giga & tera bytes onto our computers we'll always be playing catch-up as computers age. By keeping media and processing out of the actual machine, we can have lighter weight computers with better battery life (due to reduced processing) and less on-board memory to run out of.

Of course this will take a revolution in bandwidth equal to the revolution in memory (where memory is virtually free compared even to the housing and packaging that contains it).

For those who've yet to fully embrace digital music, I guess this is even less appealing than the form it takes today, but for those who have (myself included), I think it's a much more appealing scenario.

I have at least 6 different devices that I move media around on and each time there's a lengthy file transfer and none of the libraries are truly 100% in sync. I've also accidentally deleted my share of media requiring me to re-buy (or re-acquire) taking either more time, money, or both.

To be able to pay a small licensing fee and be able to stream a given song, album, show, or film to any authorized device sounds like a much less cumbersome way to do things.

Quality is another matter, but I have to believe that there will be more high-fidelity options as the media finds its legs. 

Hi Trip ... (what's a bikkel?)

I remember the pre-cloud concept of Network Computers so I understand the argument and accept is validity in certain locations (e.g. New York, London ... no, wait, didn't I just read that both cities' wireless infrastructure is groaning under the data demands of iPhones and itouches? but I digress ...)

So I would be happy to store my content into the cloud as long as I had economical access; at the moment I have an excess of external drives and duplicated content simply because I do not have enough hours in the day to "manage" it -- so much "easier" just to buy the next doubling of storage technology and start using it :-(

But I think my ideal would be to have my personal cloud - something that was a self-managing entity into which I would simply add additional capacity - why personal? because I have a phobia for relying on more components that necessary (only the other week some clown snagged my internet connection when he tried taking a boat down our street !) - if you can think of such an entity I would be happy to hear of it: after almost 44 years of working with computing technology I no longer get a buzz from fiddling with bits and bytes 

Alternatively I would be happy if my personal cloud operated as a cache, say storing the past 4 weeks of albums (or artists?) associated with tracks I have played .... but I think that is a bit visionary even for Steve Jobs

I value my CD and record collection and I don't own that much digital music. But I think, for the reasons that Trip pointed out, cloud computing is the way forward. 

While I like the idea of a personal cloud, it sort of defeats the purpose of the cloud. The more federalized the resources, the more redundant. And yeah, tell me about wrestling with current connection speeds, but we're talking about The Future® here, so... who knows.

Oh and a Bikkel is a revolutionary remote that will change the way you interact with your single function devices.

Nope, I will never do cloud computing in any way form or fashion.

I don't even use webmail, but a proper mail-app with pop (not imap), in order to have my mails physically on my harddisk.

I will never use, say, Google Docs, because if I need to write a proper letter, I prefer to keep it somewhere that is not dependant on an internet connection. The notion that "you can access it anywhere" is bollocks, to put it frankly. And I haven't even mentioned the privacy issues.

"cloud computing" to me is newspeek for "less control over your work, products, media", and "less accessibility for me as a consumer/end user".

I'm reminded by the 3D interfaces shown on shows like Bones, 24, and NCIS. It may look cool firsthand, but really, it's counter productive.

(last edit: To me, and in danish, I consider it "drengerøveri", and for the british among us, that translates to something like "chavish" og "for chavs"  /end add.)

When it comes to subscription services of all sorts, what you're basically doingis renting your music. And in the long run, yes you may have access to a lot of music, track wise, but not only does it depend on a subscription and the continued renewal of such, you also have no control whatsoever when it comes to formats, quality and such.

Of course, it's a wet dream for the people offering such services: It's DRM 2.0 - they have full control over what you do with the music, and why shouldn't they? I mean, you haven't actually bought anything, have you.

So, in short: No, I cross my fingers that people in general aren't stupid enough to jump on the PR bangdwagon that "this is the future" (i.e. "This is so much better than what you have now"). That people will demand to stay in control. Or at least that enough will demand such things.

I'm reminded of the loudness war beginning in the 80's and still leaving contrails on the horizon of the music business.

Sorry, that was a bit longwinded, but forgive me lol

Edit: I have to add that I'm not some retrolover. I ditched my record player as soon as I could (back in the late 1980's), and all my audio (music and otherwise) are either in lossless formats or uncompressed PCM - not counting my podcasts, of course.

Nope, I will never do cloud computing in any way form or fashion.

It's either a very brave, very shortsighted, or very foolish person who says an unqualified 'never'.

I'm 30 so that means that my life has spanned pretty much all of the recent changes in the way music is purchased, stored and listened to. Up until the age of about 10 I used to buy cassettes and vinyl, then after that when my parents bought a CD player I started to buy new music on CD then copy it back to cassette to listen to on my Walkman. As the 90s wore on I got hold of a Discman, and stopped using cassettes completely. I still kept hold of my turntable though to listen to my small collection that I had on vinyl. That's pretty much where I am still today, with a large CD and small vinyl collection that I regularly listen to on my collection of B&O music systems. After a brief dalliance with a MD Walkman in the late 90s I am a bit wary of any kind of formats that take away the physical storage media at the point of purchase, and although I now own a BS2 (after ditching an iPod), I still very much prefer to walk into a shop and purchase either a CD or a record and take it home and play it. I received Ian Brown's 'My Way' on vinyl for Christmas and couldn't wait to get home to listen to it on my Beolab 8000 system, but although I received it at a relative's house where they didn't own a record player, I could still take pleasure in handling the record and reading the sleeve notes. To me that sums up the difference between 'old' and 'new'. I see it a bit like making coffee: you could select your own beans and roast, grind at home, and then using your own skill you can either create a belting espresso or a cup of lukewarm pi$$, depending on how the planets are aligned that day. Alternatively you could just buy a Tassimo machine and remove the random factor from the equation, leaving you with consistent but decidedly average results...

Remember, some young people have never used the word 'record' (as in disc) and have no memory or concept of what such a thing ever was, unless of course they consult a history book (online of course).

Similarly, most very young people only know of a CD because their parents have them at home. They don't buy them nor do they ask for them as presents. Music is something intangible that exists within their MP3 player, having been sourced from somewhere in the ether and able to be instanly erased and replaced with something else usually at no cost.

Try explaining to some young (and not so young) people of the pleasure once had from reading an album sleeve containing production information, lyrics etc. You will be met with blank disbelief!      

kokomo:

Music is something intangible that exists within their MP3 player, having been sourced from somewhere in the ether and able to be instanly erased and replaced with something else usually at no cost.

Try explaining to some young (and not so young) people of the pleasure once had from reading an album sleeve containing production information, lyrics etc. You will be met with blank disbelief!

Two good points - maybe better said than I had tried to do.

1/ Are the young you described totally divorced from the pleasure of collecting? Do they only live "in the now"? Will they ever want to return (in 10 years time) to hear Lady GaGa again, but be disappointed that she no longer lives in the cloud .......

2/ Often I am asked to listen to "modern" music to see if I like it, but I rarely do, mainly because I can't decipher the lyrics ... often I find rap more pleasing than grunge because I can decipher the words ... maybe the disappearance of lyrics from even CD albums has encouraged indecipherable content (or is it a chicken or egg situation?)

I think I shall get out my copy of "Grumpy Old Men" and watch an episode to cheer me up :-)

Thanks everyone, there have been many thoughful and thought-provoking replies. The various approaches are of course not mutually exclusive and am sure most of us will still own and play vinyl and CD's for many years to come even if we succumb tothe lure of the cloud.

For the uninitiated (as I was a few weeks ago) 'cloud' music services like spotify are online services accessed from an application not unlike other PC/Mac based media players where you simply pick the music you want to listen to from a huge library and click on play. From that point on it's like listening on the radio in the sense that you haven't bought the music  and nothing is  downloaded. The service provider will pay a small royalty fee to the copyright owner (In the sameway as conventional radio stations do) which is funded by streaming adverts between songs or charging a modest monthly subscription (£10 per month for Spotify). The phrase cloud reflects the fact that the music is stored out there somwhere, but we have no visibility how or where.

As for what this all means for B&O it is still very much an open question.

As far as I can see B&O have gone as far a they can go with the CD player,and thay haven't made turntables or cassette decks for years, so there are no answers to be found in physical media as to where tomorrows 'must have' devices are going to come from. I won't be ditching any of my existing  B&O any time soon, but it is already good enough to dowhat I want it to do and with the use of media streamers and iPod docks older systems  new lease of life I won't easily be tempted by new B&O to perform this specific purpose.

I thought John's point about transfer of the physical medium at the point of ownership was particularly interesting as it  is not only  the physical transfer that is taken away by the digital/cloud approach but the point of ownership won't exist either.

Perhaps the answer is for devices like the Beosound 5 to embrace this new way of doing things and present, from within the same interface, digital music that is stored locally, and music accesssible from the internet.   

Everything said thus far about audio will become equally applicable to Video as available bandwidth increases and is already partially here with video-on-demand services on cable and (in the UK) the arrival of BBC iPlayer and the fothcoming project Canvas.   B&O's survival and prosperity in the next decade or so may well depend on how well it embraces these changes.

Simon

kokomo:

Remember, some young people have never used the word 'record' (as in disc) and have no memory or concept of what such a thing ever was, unless of course they consult a history book (online of course).

Similarly, most very young people only know of a CD because their parents have them at home. They don't buy them nor do they ask for them as presents. Music is something intangible that exists within their MP3 player, having been sourced from somewhere in the ether and able to be instanly erased and replaced with something else usually at no cost.

Try explaining to some young (and not so young) people of the pleasure once had from reading an album sleeve containing production information, lyrics etc. You will be met with blank disbelief!      

I couldn't resist referring to this little corner of 'The cloud'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

I think B&O has - for once - jumped in quite early with digital music and , to a lesser extent, digital video; I remember when BeoCenter AV5 was launched, the product development team said it was the end of the VCR & that people would download their films from the web..see where we are now..

As for music, ever since I bought my BeoPort, I sold my BeoCenter 2300, stopped buying CDs and ripped all my CD collection on NMUSIC; after doing all this and editing the music tags for around 6 months, I shifted to NRADIO, and ..I'm still editing the radio stations! I kept 100 stations from the original 3,000 + programs on NRADIO, and am almost no more listening to NMUSIC, only when the Internet connection fails.

So I don't mind "not owning" music, actually I'm so happy I don't have to clean the CD covers, open the cases, load the CD, and keep a  piece of furniture for storing all the CDs..I recently bought a second-hand BeoCenter 2 and use it mainly for NMUSIC & NRADIO display of info in the living room. I'm not a fan of BeoSound 5 because it gives me much fewer features compared to a PC with BeoPort, but maybe someday I'll buy the BeoMaster 5 only, to connect to a BeoVision. I'm gone 100% digital, even the car plays music on SD cards and I have the Serenata for music on the move, and the only CDs I buy are really from artists I like & still want to support. In 2009 I must have bought..5 and , er..2 DVDs

kokomo:

Similarly, most very young people only know of a CD because their parents have them at home. They don't buy them nor do they ask for them as presents. Music is something intangible that exists within their MP3 player, having been sourced from somewhere in the ether and able to be instanly erased and replaced with something else usually at no cost.

Or, to put it in pictorial form:

I have trouble understanding how the industry is going to survive this when more and more people are paying less and less for the music they listen. Being a f*g that buys music, I definitely want to get a physical thing in my hands instead of some bits on a wire that aren't even actually mine to keep. Otherwise, I would just pirate it just as everybody else does instead of paying for inferior DRM crap...

Maybe I'm lucky in that I like music that can still be heard on radio stations that aren't totally annoying as a listening experience (little or no commercials, presenters that can actually create content other than idiot after another phoning in, etc) - so I can often stay entertained for a week without playing a single record.

And yet my youngest, who is 16 years old and more than fully "Torrent" aware, had loads of CD's on his Christmas list - and guess what he bought with the money he got from Aunts/Grandparents etc. ...........yup more CD's.

I think there is something else to consider, I'm not sure if the word "enthusiast" covers it but I suspect that media consumption will differ between enthusiasts and those with only a passing interest. I don't necessarily mean equipment of hifi enthusiasts (although there will be some), more so fans of specific artists/bands etc. I suspect that a sizable number of folk (even among the younger generation) who avidly follow a band wouldn't be happy only owning iTunes downloads of "their" bands albums and even less so with being able to play it from Spotify whereas someone who happens to like the latest single by Joe McElderry or the Black Eyed Peas may be happy to download it to their iPod or Phone.

I don't feel I could call myself a Bowie fan if I had just downloaded his albums, even if I had payed for them.

I have no problem with downloading an album from a Torrent site to see if I like it - if I do I'll buy the CD, delete the download and rip the CD (for iPod use) so that I know it's a first generation rip, if not I'll delete it as I'm unlikely to ever listen to it again.

At present we also have the crazy situation where, for back catalogue stuff at least, but even some current stuff - it can be cheaper to buy the CD than it is to buy the download.

The move to high definition audio discs stalled because of the explosion of MP3 players and the low resolution format required - it seems unlikely that there will be a move back to the SACD format anytime soon and so that would seem an area that the download route can add real value rather than just trying to resell us the same music in yet another format. Indeed companies like Linn Records among others are doing exactly that, although mainstream content has yet to be offered by the major labels.

kokomo:

Nope, I will never do cloud computing in any way form or fashion.

 

It's either a very brave, very shortsighted, or very foolish person who says an unqualified 'never'.

It's called "having principles".

- besides, I do think I qualified that statement.

tournedos:

I have trouble understanding how the industry is going to survive this when more and more people are paying less and less for the music they listen. Being a f*g that buys music, I definitely want to get a physical thing in my hands instead of some bits on a wire that aren't even actually mine to keep. Otherwise, I would just pirate it just as everybody else does instead of paying for inferior DRM crap...

I worried just like that when iTunes Music Store turned out to be such a hit. The only difference being my worry mostly had to do with the lack of quality of lossy 128kbps files, and annoying DRM added to it.

However, in the last couple of years, it seems an undergrowth of people demanding better quality has made their mark (as has the people demanding no DRM). What I see is the mainstream, as usual, trailing behind the undergrowth, and that people like you and I might just have a brighter future audio-wise than the bleak outlook we had a couple of years ago. I do think the two cultures can co-exist - not happily, but nonetheless co-exist.

I hate the concept of 'cloud computing' as there are issues with privacy on all possible levels. 
We  looked into it for our office environment but concluded against it as it was not secure enough.

 I still have records (and bought some more in the last couple of years) Love the artwork and the 'physical' having it.
Also still buy cd's. A hard disk crash (total loss) teaches you the value of having either the original music available or having sufficient backup. With the big size hard drives this is very fast becoming a reality not to be neglected.

I did try itunes but find no benefit to it. It's (almost) as expensive as the original cd's. Living downtown, there are enough places around that at least one will have a sale on cd's somewhere.

Also the standard of quality will need to be improved dramatically IMO. Current standards like MP3 etc will be obsolete in a couple of years and surpassed by better and less lossy types of compression (hopefully fully lossless at that point). If we then can work out a way of buying a physical something as prove of ownership (maybe a usb pass key?)  we might then get somewhere with a fully 'cloud based' concept.

Personally I have always liked the idea of just listening to free radio (FM DAB, N) and have a modest CD and record collection (and still fewer cassettes).

I don't have a PVR for television, although we did have several VCR's in the past. As always seemed to be the case with VCR's, you can easily finish up with hundreds of tapes that are poorly indexed and with no time to actually ever view the content. At least with moderm storage, indexing and re-ordering is no longer a problem. It's human nature to want something physical when paying for it............ but maybe the market is going to force us all to change our habits.

Printed newspapers are in decline, and wiithin five to ten years we will all be paying for music, reading matter, and television through subscription or pay per view. I don't happen to think that that's a good thing. We will be overdependent for both our work and much leisure on the internet. That really can't be a good thing.

Graham

I think the die is cast on this issue already.  Apple through its iTunes service is the largest seller of recorded music in the world.  The distribution of CDs is declining rapidly.  This process is not unlike the change to CDs from vinyl in the mid 80’s --- it happened almost overnight.  The same thing is happening to the printed word.  Amazon announced recently they had sold more books in digital format than hardcover.  There are many other companies that are quickly trying to figure out how they can go digital and make money at it.

The notion of cloud computing is not exactly fully developed.  Cloud computing can mean many things.  An individual if they are techy enough can have their own cloud.  I can watch TV from my cable setup on my MacBook Air in my bedroom or in my hotel room when traveling using WiFi.  I can also listen to iTunes on my home computer or remotely.  Some security systems are in a private cloud which enables the user to sign in and check their house.  Not everyone can do these things but it is becoming easier.

I must admit I am uneasy with using Google’s cloud service because Google is really in the advertising business.  They use a lot of information that people freely give them to build general profiles of users in order to deliver targeted advertising to its users.

I agree with many who don’t want to subscribe to a music cloud because I feel  the main problem is the reliability and speed of the internet.  Maybe there is going to be a hybrid system whereby you can own and rent music not unlike Apple’s movie service.  The internet needs to be better!

Ownership of something is a tenuous thing.  Vinyl cover art can be something to treasure because many times, they are true works of art.  CD booklets are sometimes very good.  However these things are ultimately headed for the dustbin of history.

I know I haven’t exactly answered the question.  This is just a few thoughts I had.

William

linder:

 

I think the die is cast on this issue already.  Apple through its iTunes service is the largest seller of recorded music in the world.  The distribution of CDs is declining rapidly.  This process is not unlike the change to CDs from vinyl in the mid 80’s --- it happened almost overnight.  The same thing is happening to the printed word.  Amazon announced recently they had sold more books in digital format than hardcover.  There are many other companies that are quickly trying to figure out how they can go digital and make money at it.

The notion of cloud computing is not exactly fully developed.  Cloud computing can mean many things.  An individual if they are techy enough can have their own cloud.  I can watch TV from my cable setup on my MacBook Air in my bedroom or in my hotel room when traveling using WiFi.  I can also listen to iTunes on my home computer or remotely.  Some security systems are in a private cloud which enables the user to sign in and check their house.  Not everyone can do these things but it is becoming easier.

I must admit I am uneasy with using Google’s cloud service because Google is really in the advertising business.  They use a lot of information that people freely give them to build general profiles of users in order to deliver targeted advertising to its users.

I agree with many who don’t want to subscribe to a music cloud because I feel  the main problem is the reliability and speed of the internet.  Maybe there is going to be a hybrid system whereby you can own and rent music not unlike Apple’s movie service.  The internet needs to be better!

Ownership of something is a tenuous thing.  Vinyl cover art can be something to treasure because many times, they are true works of art.  CD booklets are sometimes very good.  However these things are ultimately headed for the dustbin of history.

I know I haven’t exactly answered the question.  This is just a few thoughts I had.

William

 

A point I forgot from my earlier post - how would I ever have realised that a "Young Ricky Wakeman" played Mellotron on "Space Oddity" without the album notes?

Three of my favourite things (Bowie, Wakeman, Mellotron) colliding in one trivia fact on an album sleeve - unbeatable!

Puncher:

A point I forgot from my earlier post - how would I ever have realised that a "Young Ricky Wakeman" played Mellotron on "Space Oddity" without the album notes?

Three of my favourite things (Bowie, Wakeman, Mellotron) colliding in one trivia fact on an album sleeve - unbeatable!

You can still get a new vinyl copy for £16.99.

http://www.whatrecords.co.uk/items/56023.htm

linder:

Puncher:

A point I forgot from my earlier post - how would I ever have realised that a "Young Ricky Wakeman" played Mellotron on "Space Oddity" without the album notes?

Three of my favourite things (Bowie, Wakeman, Mellotron) colliding in one trivia fact on an album sleeve - unbeatable!

You can still get a new vinyl copy for £16.99.

http://www.whatrecords.co.uk/items/56023.htm

Thanks for that!

I'm actually very happy with CD's (same, albeit smaller, covers and sometimes even more info in the booklet) - I gave all of my old vinyl to my eldest (who is also very "Torrent" aware but still buys vinyl and CD's).

I may be old fashioned but I like collecting CD's (and all of my subscription "Future Music" magazines, much to my wife's displeasure)

I'm happy to play music from iTunes etc. and indeed ripping the CD is probably the first thing I do, but only about 2% of my iTunes is music I don't "physically" own and even then it's probably there on trial before I buy or discard.

Maybe I'm obsolete!