Started writing this as a PM, but thought it might be interesting as a topic?

You've been discussing the lack of True HD support with the BS3. I was watching Batman Begins and switched the audio setting to 'English Dolby True HD'. Not only did it sound a lot better, more crisp and punchy, but I checked the PS3 'display' option and it said that the movie was playing back True HD.

Now, I know this is just the PS3 showing displaying the audio output, but surely the BS3 has to be able to support this or at least convert it to an audible sound, or we wouldn't hear a thing?

moxxey:

Started writing this as a PM, but thought it might be interesting as a topic?

You've been discussing the lack of True HD support with the BS3. I was watching Batman Begins and switched the audio setting to 'English Dolby True HD'. Not only did it sound a lot better, more crisp and punchy, but I checked the PS3 'display' option and it said that the movie was playing back True HD.

Now, I know this is just the PS3 showing displaying the audio output, but surely the BS3 has to be able to support this or at least convert it to an audible sound, or we wouldn't hear a thing?

The PS3 with the latest update can decode MA  and all the other high def sound formats- thats why it beats all the other players- and send it via HDMI, the display will show that; but because the BS3 is not HDMI 1.3 compliant what you will get is DTS.

It will 'sound' a bit different mainly because volume levels vary and the unit attempts to decode ina different way But true HD is not about being more crispy. I cant speak for Batman Begins and the quality of its true HD sound track but I have heard a few well mastered true HD discs and its best described as a true realism rather than 'fill in' at the rears that one gets with DTS.

Of course the current advice for DTS is not to spend huge sums on rear speakers as they 'dont do much' but this new format that might well change-

Its a further pity and a huge oversight for BS3 that of all the connection possibilities we do not have analogue 5.1 inputs- this would enable us to purchase the new BR players than can decode and send it via analogue and not HDMI.

This is what makes me think that there will probably be ( or have to be) a new version  of BS3 at some point. But B&O probably wont bother until its 'established'

This is way too technical and complex for me. However, these pages seem to say that if the decoding is done in the Blu-Ray player, rather than in the receiver, any HDMI cable can be used to transmit uncompressed audio and that older receivers can thus be used, even if the receiver does not itself support the format.   I am not expressing an opinion, as I said too technical for me.

HOW TO GET: Uncompressed PCM, Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD MASTER Audio - Blu-ray For

High-Def FAQ: Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained | High-Def Digest

 

Dolby - Dolby Technology - Dolby True HD Compatibility Information for Next Ge

Razlaw:

This is way too technical and complex for me. However, these pages seem to say that if the decoding is done in the Blu-Ray player, rather than in the receiver, any HDMI cable can be used to transmit uncompressed audio

Yes, uncompressed audio is not True HD. Uncompressed PCM is supported by both the PS3 and the BS3. However, I was trying to ask 355f about True HD, which is not supported by the BS3/BV7-40 MKIII. I couldn't figure how the sound is better when switching to True HD, and that we could hear it, even though it's not supported. The BS3 must be doing 'something' with the incoming sound to enable us to hear the movie track.

I also wondered if that means that it's better to switch to True HD rather than standard Dolby 5.1, even though it's not 'supported'.

Razlaw:

This is way too technical and complex for me. However, these pages seem to say that if the decoding is done in the Blu-Ray player, rather than in the receiver, any HDMI cable can be used to transmit uncompressed audio and that older receivers can thus be used, even if the receiver does not itself support the format.   I am not expressing an opinion, as I said too technical for me.

HOW TO GET: Uncompressed PCM, Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD MASTER Audio - Blu-ray For

High-Def FAQ: Blu-ray and HD DVD Audio Explained | High-Def Digest

 

Dolby - Dolby Technology - Dolby True HD Compatibility Information for Next Ge

You are correct, but if you read your first link page you will notice that for HDMA and MA HDMI 1.3 is required

still confused.....decoding can be done by either the player, or the receiver, it does not need to be done by both, does it?

This article seems to say decoding in the player is all that is needed and thus an old receiver can be used. It says in fact decoding in the player is better than in the receiver as it allows for sound from extra features to be mixed in, such as commentary, something that can not occur if decoding is done in the receiver.    How to actually use Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD - Engadget HD

Razlaw:

still confused.....decoding can be done by either the player, or the receiver, it does not need to be done by both, does it?

This article seems to say decoding in the player is all that is needed and thus an old receiver can be used. It says in fact decoding in the player is better than in the receiver as it allows for sound from extra features to be mixed in, such as commentary, something that can not occur if decoding is done in the receiver.    How to actually use Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD - Engadget HD

You are correct in that it only needs to be decoded once, either in the amplifier or the player itself.

In either case both the amp and player have to be HDMI 1.3 compliant otherwise neither will work

An older amp can be used if the player does the decoding, but the amp must have analogue 5.1 channel inputs and the player analogue outs for MA ( so the PS3 in that case is no use- you would need the panasonic BD50)  It cant be sent via HDMI- firstly because older amps dont have hdmi and even if they did ( like the BS3) its not compliant to hdmi1.3 or more!

Decoding in an advnced receiver is the better way of doing it as one can change many parameters, bass management, crossover, time delay, sub delay ect

Your finding some good articles on the net this is a copy from your link!!

the advantage of HDMI 1.3 (preferably 1.3a to help solve possible lip sync issues) is its ability to carry compressed audio (aka bitstream) -- we'll get into why later -- RATHER THAN THE PREVIOUS VERSION WHICH COULD ONLY CARRY UNCOMPRESSED AUDIO (LPCM

If you have the latest AV receiver with HDMI 1.3, you can set your player to send the compressed signal (aka bitstream) to it and let it do the heavy work. Both your HD movie player and your AV receiver have to support each individual codec though. So just because your player will output every codec via bitstream, doesn't mean your receiver can decode them.

So in others words! the player can output  the codec in bitsream BUT when it reaches the amp via HDMI- the amp has to know what to do with it!!  If the amp is not HDMI 1.3 compliant- it does not know what to do!! so you get DTS or 5.1

But if you had anaolgue outs from a player( where the decoding is done internally and output as analogue) and you have anaolgue inputs on your receiver- it would work because HDMI is not in the picture! Nasty lot this HDMI

Thanks for the compliment on finding good articles. Here is another one I found. This one specifically says that both Dolby trueHD and  DTS Master HD work with HDMI 1.1, It even has a specific comment that 1.3 is not needed.

I am getting very confused. Glad that the sound from our BV7 with BL9s and 1s is wonderful, whatever it is I am hearing. 

 

HDMI 1.3, Dolby TrueHD, HD DTS, BluRay

Just found this link. In the drop down menu within the knowledge base go to   "Compatability and Interopratability". The first question is whether 1.3 is needed for Dolby True HD and DTS Master HD.  The answer is no as long as the player does the decoding and the receiver supports multi-channel PCM through the HDMI.  

HDMI :: Resources :: Knowledge Base

Razlaw:

Thanks for the compliment on finding good articles. Here is another one I found. This one specifically says that both Dolby trueHD and  DTS Master HD work with HDMI 1.1, It even has a specific comment that 1.3 is not needed.

I am getting very confused. Glad that the sound from our BV7 with BL9s and 1s is wonderful, whatever it is I am hearing. 

 

HDMI 1.3, Dolby TrueHD, HD DTS, BluRay

That ok Im pleased you found the articles but you dont appear to be reading them!!- you keep saying your confused!

Suffice to say one should appreciate that you cant get the superior codecs with BS3. Furthermore its very unlikely that the BV7 BR ( proposed) will support it either.

 

The sound is wonderful but could be an awful lot better with HDMA

New HD lossless audio formats: In addition to HDMI’s current ability to support high-bandwidth uncompressed digital audio and all currently-available compressed formats (such as Dolby® Digital and DTS®), HDMI 1.3 adds additional support for new lossless compressed digital audio formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™.

What HDMI does the BS3 have? then you have your answer- it does NOT support the codecs! look at the specs for the BS3 it does not support it- send an e mail to B&O- they will confirm it does not support it! Here is the tech spec direct from B&O website!

DESIGN

DIMENSIONS/WEIGHT

CABINET FINISH

POWER CONSUMPTION

HD READY

TUNER

SURROUND SOUND SYSTEM

TV SYSTEM

TUNING

PICTURE AND PICTURE/TELETEXT

TELETEXT

MENU LANGUAGES

STEREO SYSTEM

SURROUND SOUND SYSTEM

PLAY TIMER

AERIAL INPUTS

AV1-6 (Inputs)

AV1-2 (RECORD OUT)

PLASMA DISPLAY AND

FRONT PROJECTOR OUTPUT

CINEMA

HEADPHONES

LOUDSPEAKER OUTPUTS

IR CONTROL OUTPUTS

DATA PORT

BEOLINK

BeoLink VIDEO DISTRIBUTION

OPTIONAL EXTRA

ACCESSORIES

REMOTE CONTROL

David Lewis

54cm x 33cm x 10cm/8kg.

Aluminium/black

Typical: 43W; standby: 0.8W

Yes

Analogue built-in. ATSC*. DVB-S/T* (optional)

Dolby Digital 5.1/6.1 EX, Dolby 7.1 EX,

Dolby Pro-Logic ll/llx, DTS 5.1, DTS ES 6.1,

DTS Neo:6, AAC*

According to type and setup:

B/G/L/L/I/D/K PAL, SECAM, NTSC on AV.

99 programmes, autotune, programme move and

automatic naming

Yes

Level 2 1/2, 9 memory pages per programme.

2048 pages. National character-set

English, Danish, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, German,

French, Swedish

A2 + Nicam Stereo

Dolby Digital 5.1/6.1 EX, Dolby 7.1 EX, Dolby Pro-Logic

ll/llx, DTS

The reason I am confused is you say that 1.3 is required whereas the articles I have found say it is not. The most recent one I posted appears to be an official HDMI page as it contains information for manufacturers on things such as trademarks etc.

That page specifically says 1.3 is NOT needed for Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master, contrary to your statement that 1.3 is required, hence my confusion.

It says all that is needed is a player that can decode those formats and a receiver that can receive multi-channel PCM and a HDMI 1.1 connecting the two.

I have our Sony Blu-Ray player set to output via PCM and when I check the menu durring a Blu-Ray the BV7 says it is playing 5.1 channel PCM...i.e. multi-channel PCM.

Based on the HDMI web page's explanation, then the BS3/BV7 can play  Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master, as long as it is decoded by the player.

I understand what the printed specifications are but I think that refers to what the BV7/BS3 can decode itself, not whether or not it can receive a multi-channel PCM that has already been decoded by the player.

 

Razlaw:

The reason I am confused is you say that 1.3 is required whereas the articles I have found say it is not. The most recent one I posted appears to be an official HDMI page as it contains information for manufacturers on things such as trademarks etc.

That page specifically says 1.3 is NOT needed for Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master, contrary to your statement that 1.3 is required, hence my confusion.

It says all that is needed is a player that can decode those formats and a receiver that can receive multi-channel PCM and a HDMI 1.1 connecting the two.

I have our Sony Blu-Ray player set to output via PCM and when I check the menu durring a Blu-Ray the BV7 says it is playing 5.1 channel PCM...i.e. multi-channel PCM.

Based on the HDMI web page's explanation, then the BS3/BV7 can play  Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master, as long as it is decoded by the player.

 

 

If you go back a few posts- here is a copy

So in others words! the player can output  the codec in bitsream BUT when it reaches the amp via HDMI- the amp has to know what to do with it!!  If the amp is not HDMI 1.3 compliant- it does not know what to do!! so you get DTS or 5.1 -

There are benefits to using HDMI 1.3 for the newer codecs but  the previous version will also decode them but the issue is that the BS3 doesnt have either version to enable it to operate MA

What the BS3 does support is 5.1 and DTS as is shown on the website from B&O. even if  its decoded by the player the BS3 cant act upon it

So, you disagree with the articles I cited that specifically say 1.3 in the amplifier is NOT needed and specifically say that all that is needed is a receiver that accepts HDMI 1.1 as an input?  That is where my confusion is, you say 1.3 is required, the cited sources say 1.3 is NOT required, NOT required in the source, NOT required in the cable, and not required in the amp.

Razlaw:

So, you disagree with the articles I cited that specifically say 1.3 in the amplifier is NOT needed and specifically say that all that is needed is a receiver that accepts HDMI 1.1 as an input?  That is where my confusion is, you say 1.3 is required, the cited sources say 1.3 is NOT required, NOT required in the source, NOT required in the cable, and not required in the amp.

BS3 does NOT support the new audio codecs!

Just put Casino Royale Blu-Ray in. It has an uncompressed multi-channel PCM soundtrack. Selected that sound option.

Upon touching menu on the Beo 4, followed by the number 3, display indicates Linear PCM 3/2.1 is the Audio

Alternatively touching menu twice to bring up the main BV7 menu, then "options", then "sound",  then "sound system" and the display reads:

Input Format:  Multichannel PCM          Output: Format Multichannel PCM Speaker 5.

I wanted to try the same with Dolby True HD but realized our Blu-Ray player does not decode True HD.

Anybody with a Blu-Ray player that decodes Dolby True HD want to try these menu steps and see what the BV7/9/BS3 displays if the player is set up to output TrueHD and TrueHD is selected in the Disc's on screen set up menu?

If the surround processor supports multichannel PCM and has only HDMI 1.2 inputs (as in the case of the Beosystem 3), and the connected Blu-Ray player decodes Tru-HD or DTS-HD soundtracks internally, the player will send the soundtrack in multichannel PCM format to the processor. All the benefits of having a high quality soundtrack are preserved.This is exactly what Razlaw observes in his setup. Therefore , it is not necessary for the Beosystem 3 to have Tru-HD or DTS-HD codecs implemented provided that the connected played can do the decoding itself.

Regards,

Jean 

Razlaw:

Anybody with a Blu-Ray player that decodes Dolby True HD want to try these menu steps and see what the BV7/9/BS3 displays if the player is set up to output TrueHD and TrueHD is selected in the Disc's on screen set up menu?

Yes, as I said above! The PS3 will output True HD and the BS3 will accept. As I said, the sound is crisper and more punchy - so it's definitely improved over the standard Dolby 5.1. This was my original question!

I also have mixed opinions - you're right, the article(s) seem to state you don't need HDMI 1.3 for True HD. So, the BS3 is doing 'something' with it and I can't believe the PS3 is clever enough to figure the BS3 can't understand True HD, so it resends 5.1 instead....but still displays 'True HD' in the display. So, conclusion is that the BS3 is definitely decoding and processing the incoming True HD audio.

I'm somewhat puzzled by this thread.

What 355f is stating, is that in order to properly decode the HD-Audio information from either of the high-resolution formats, the BeoSystem 3 needs to have those codecs installed.

What the tech-spec page for BeoSystem 3 clearly shows, is that those codecs are not installed - which is why it is fair to assume that an HD-Audio bitstream will be converted to a supported format. May still sound good, but it's not a truly transparent bitstream decoding.

These are the supported surround sound codecs: 

  

 

I'm adding this here, for comparison - these are the corresponding surround sound formats for an HD-Audio capable processor, the Pioneer LX60. You'll note there are several extra codecs, and it's probable that the BeoSystem 3 does not perform native processing on these, but instead translates to a supported format:

Dolby Digital Yes 

Dolby Digital EX Yes 

Dolby Digital Plus Yes 

Dolby Pro Logic IIx Yes 

Dolby True HD Yes 

DTS Yes 

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 Yes 

DTS Neo: 6 Yes 

DTS 96/24 Yes 

DTS-HD Master Audio Yes 

DTS-HD High Resolution Yes 

DTS-Express Yes 

WMA 9 Pro Yes 

Surround Modes 13 + 1  

soundproof:

I'm adding this here, for comparison - these are the corresponding surround sound formats for an HD-Audio capable processor, the Pioneer LX60. You'll note there are several extra codecs, and it's probable that the BeoSystem 3 does not perform native processing on these, but instead translates to a supported format:

Eh? A codec either enables you to play or convert. Why convert when you can use the same codec to play? It can't convert either if the codec is not installed. If the codec is missing, we'd hear nothing. For instance, I have a friend who borrows my PS3 from time to time. If he watches a Blu-ray via the PS3, via his LCD 32" TV, if it's left to PCM he won't hear a thing. No codec means it can't understand and process the PCM-based audio. He has to switch the PS3 to bitstream.

So, if the BS3 is processing the incoming True HD audio, there has to be a codec to understand this audio in the first place. If not, we wouldn't hear a thing.

Perhaps later BS3 sw updates have updated with new versions of the Dolby licensed codecs?

moxxey:

Perhaps later BS3 sw updates have updated with new versions of the Dolby licensed codecs?

I don't know. I used the most recent spec's I found for BeoSystem 3 at the B&O site.

If the signal is processed in an HD-Audio capable player, and then sent analogue to respective AUDIO IN channels on the BeoSystem 3, then you'd get the full resolution playback.

If the signal is sent as a digital bitstream, then you can either get "Format not supported" or something similar, or the signal will be reprocessed (used in a number of components) to a supported format. And it could be this that is happening in the BeoSystem 3 - would be nice if it did support native processing of the HD-Audio formats, but there's no claim in the tech-spec's or release material stating that it actually does so. 

soundproof:

moxxey:

Perhaps later BS3 sw updates have updated with new versions of the Dolby licensed codecs?

I don't know. I used the most recent spec's I found for BeoSystem 3 at the B&O site.

If the signal is processed in an HD-Audio capable player, and then sent analogue to respective AUDIO IN channels on the BeoSystem 3, then you'd get the full resolution playback.

If the signal is sent as a digital bitstream, then you can either get "Format not supported" or something similar, or the signal will be reprocessed (used in a number of components) to a supported format. And it could be this that is happening in the BeoSystem 3 - would be nice if it did support native processing of the HD-Audio formats, but there's no claim in the tech-spec's or release material stating that it actually does so. 

I've asked B&O for clarification. It's not really mission-critical I suppose. The audio is superb regardless. Uncompressed PCM and True HD audio is a key difference between a SD DVD and Blu-ray.

moxxey:

Uncompressed PCM and True HD audio is a key difference between a SD DVD and Blu-ray.

I agree. I don't have a full HD-Audio setup at home now, but I have experienced it regularly, and it can be spectacular.

B&O's acoustic lens speakers are perfect for it - providing an "almost" dipole projection to the surround channels.

BeoSystem 3 should be HD-Audio native! 

Hi guys,

I have read alot of this and it is as follows:

You have three choices to decode Dolby True HD and DTS-HD:

1. You send Bitstream (not decoded signal) from the player to the amp. In this case the amp will make ALL the decoding and bass management and roomcompensation and so on. In this case you need a player that support HDMI 1.3 and an Amp that support HDMI 1.3. Of course you need an AMP that can decode the new codecs. You connect the two devices with HDMI-cable (1.3 certified).

2. You let the player do the decoding. In this case you connect the player with HDMI-cable and the output from the player is digital PCM-sound. In this case the player decode the sound but the AMP will do all the bass management, room compensation and so on. The AMP will make the D/A, which means that it convert the digital pcm-sound to analog so we get sound in our speakers. In this case you just need an AMP that support HDMI 1.1 or higher and of course the AMP does not need to have the ability to decode the HD-sound. It is important that the AMP support Multichannel PCM. (Beosystem 3 supports this).

3. You let the player do ALL the decoding. This means that you let the player decode the HD-codecs and make the D/A conversion and also bass management, room compensation and so on. In this case you connect 6 analog cables from the player to the AMP. You dont use the HDMI-cable for sound, just for the picture. (You put HDMI-sound in the player to "Off").

There is a lot of discussions in different AV-forums about what way is the "best" way to make the decoding and what way sounds best. Some people think that if the AMP make all the decoding (Bitstream-signal), then this is the best sound. But if you buy a very good Bluray player (Panasonic DMP-BD 50) or even better Marantz 8002, then the player is the best way to make the decoding. It is correct that IF the player make all the work, then you can use interactive services which the new "final profil 2.0" support.

Today it is only the Panasonic DMP-BD 50 which support Final Profil 2.0. Many other player support "Bonus view 1.1" and then you can not experience a alot of interactive features.  

So if you have Beosystem 3 (and BV7-40 Mark III) then you can enjoy Dolby true HD and DTS-HD if you buy a Bluray-player which can make the decoding. Then you feed the Beosystem 3 with digital PCM-sound and BS3 make the rest of the work. The Bluray players that can make the decoding internally is:

Panasonic DMP-BD50, Sony DMP S-500 (and S550, soon), Pioneer BD-LX70A, Denon 3800, Marantz 8002.

I hope this sort things out in this thread!

Regards
Martin

 

Excellent summary Martin.  Thank you for putting all of the pieces and options together so clearly.

I think the Sony BDP-S350 will also decode Dolby True HD but have read somewhat conflicting reports on whether it also does DTS Master HD. When we bought our BV7 we also bought a BDP-S300 not realizing it did not decode. I was going to call the dealer today about exchanging for the BDP-S350.

As a side note, when playing CDs in a connected player the menu option will also display the sound format, stereo. It will also display the format when playing a DVD in the internal player.