Some might not care and some are waiting for the winner to be announced - if there ever will be one…

We still have SACD and CD, never a winner – even though DVD-audio lost.

 

Take a look at this side to see the actual sales on both formats in Denmark

http://www.axelmusic.dk/

 

and either of these sides to see the actual sales on both formats Worldwide

http://www.axelmusic.com/index_fab.php?fid=38&cid=&pid=fmt

or

http://www.axelmusic.com/index_fab.php?fid=39&cid=&pid=fmt

 

On all pages there is a barometer in the left side showing the sales in percent, and being updated weekly.

 

Living in Denmark with now 75% of the sales on Blu-ray and rising on .dk, I actually thought that there never was a war, but apparently there is very much, with almost 50/50 on the .com side. And now that Paramount (being one of the studios initially releasing films on both formats) has not received money from Microsoft to only release HD-DVD’s, it will take even longer before the war is over. Strange though they don’t offer a X-box version with internal HD-DVD drive, like the PS3’s internal Blu-ray…

Sorry - Piont just being that I understand why B&O are waiting. But when that is said, they will have to follow the battle very close, so that they are ready with a product the day the winner is announced, and not two or three years later...

My ramble for today...

(The evil) WalMart offered a Toshiba HD-DVD player for $100 US as part of its pre-"Black Friday" promotion.  Is that because there are a billion players lying around in shipping containers, or because they want to be in the HD-DVD business and blow away Blu-Ray?  Or is it because we get Chinese products for nothing over here?

Microsoft attaches HD-DVD to X-Box and Sony has Blu-Ray with Playstation 3.  I cannot imagine a scenario where the 2 formats will co-exist, when the fortunes of mega-companies depend on their having a winner and a loser.  We call it "screwing the pooch" over here.

There was an article New York Times today discussing how the Eagles did their new release via Wal-Mart and their own website, only.  The Eagles make more money this way, are the #1 release of the year to date, and have bypassed the major record companies.  A long way from when Pearl Jam refused to work with Ticketmaster in the US, and became a second-rate band (in the eyes of America) overnight.

My guess is that the entertainment distribution and technology rules are changing very fast, and the longer it takes to decide a DVD format winner, the more likely broadband streaming will win the video war.  And iTunes won't even be a player.  It will be WalMart and their ilk. I think I am going to be sick. 

Ray 

HD-DVD players are being sold for ever cheaper, and the HD-DVD group is having to pay studios (the small minority of major studios that aren't part of the blu-ray group) for a limited period (note: these are not HD-DVD only for good) of exclusivity on new releases - looks to me like blu-ray has already won. YMMV, of course.

my two cents,

the format war had better get moving. i get more and more of my hd content in electronic (and even streaming) format. if the majors don't get things decided, the business model could change to bypass the physical media altogether !

 

- scott

 

Greg:

HD-DVD players are being sold for ever cheaper, and the HD-DVD group is having to pay studios (the small minority of major studios that aren't part of the blu-ray group) for a limited period (note: these are not HD-DVD only for good) of exclusivity on new releases - looks to me like blu-ray has already won. YMMV, of course.

I'd say that's a short-sighted take on what's happening. I have no prejudice for either format, and think the entire HD-war is absurd. But if you look at which format is experiencing the strongest development in sales internationally then that's HD-DVD, precisely because they have lowered the price of the playback units. The fact that they are also investing in exclusive contracts with program providers is actually a strength, not a weakness ...

PS3 gave BR a boost in numbers, but source disk sales are going in HD-DVD's favor.

I'm waiting for a good combination player - a couple of interesting candidates are in the pipeline now, from Samsung and LG. I got very, very frustrated with a Pioneer BR I had for a month until I gave it up - lousy functionality and interminable waits when inserting discs. 

soundproof:

Greg:

HD-DVD players are being sold for ever cheaper, and the HD-DVD group is having to pay studios (the small minority of major studios that aren't part of the blu-ray group) for a limited period (note: these are not HD-DVD only for good) of exclusivity on new releases - looks to me like blu-ray has already won. YMMV, of course.

I'd say that's a short-sighted take on what's happening. I have no prejudice for either format, and think the entire HD-war is absurd. But if you look at which format is experiencing the strongest development in sales internationally then that's HD-DVD, precisely because they have lowered the price of the playback units. The fact that they are also investing in exclusive contracts with program providers is actually a strength, not a weakness ...

PS3 gave BR a boost in numbers, but source disk sales are going in HD-DVD's favor.

I'm waiting for a good combination player - a couple of interesting candidates are in the pipeline now, from Samsung and LG. I got very, very frustrated with a Pioneer BR I had for a month until I gave it up - lousy functionality and interminable waits when inserting discs. 

 

OK, look, I don't want to get into the Blu-ray vs HDDVD thing - I don't have a vested interest either way - the last thing needed here is another version of the whole mac vs PC thing (although for the record, mac is better, of course).

But I *have* to correct you on the 'disc sales are going in HD-DVD's favor' comment. I don't know which country or store you're talking about but worldwide disk sales in 2007 to date Blu-ray disks have outsold HDDVD titles by some margin. A quick google will confirm, e.g.

Reuters:

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Blu-ray DVD titles outsold rival HD-DVD titles by almost 2-to-1 in the first nine months of the year, but analysts expect additional HD-DVD support and new hit releases to "transform" the high-definition DVD battle score in the fourth quarter. 

In dedicated HD players, HDDVD apparently outsold blu-ray, possibly because they are 1) much cheaper and 2) generally better products. Although I've had a chance to play with Sony's new 'entry level' BDP-S300 and load times are pretty fast and it performs well. Still not the latest spec, though, of course. 

 

  

scott451:

my two cents,

the format war had better get moving. i get more and more of my hd content in electronic (and even streaming) format. if the majors don't get things decided, the business model could change to bypass the physical media altogether !

 

- scott

 

 

Now that is very true! 

@Greg

I don't care either way, Greg. I'm very happy with the quality of my upscaled DVDs - though I do enjoy the higher quality sound of the HD disc formats.
But there's a lot of misinformation from either side in the so called "war."

The threadstarter linked to a statistic that's worth taking a look at. BLU-RAY in the first column, HD-DVD in the second:

Weekly	55.3%	44.7%
Monthly	44.4%	55.6%
Yearly	48.7%	51.3%
Releases	511	438
* Based on AxelMusic sales

 

As a manufacturer in China of BR and HDDVD I think we should not look at historic sales. Its what is happening now that matters and will these formats ever become mainstream?? - if they dont the whole HD thing is not a war- its a memory!! HD is a bit of a con and the public realise it! with upscaled dvd offering very similar performance and a HUGE title offering- why bother with HD with its very limited offering, products out of date from the moment they are released and a picture quality which in many instances is no better than the former!

The problem is quite complex- on the one hand price drops of HDDVD have recently been announced of up to 30% and worldwide sales are now more in the favour of HDDVD than blue ray but comparing to dvd sales the whole HD thing is a loser. Just look at the titles available from rental companies for example-  HDDVD offering is huge by comparison to BR

Blue ray is more complex and allows for so many more possibilities  particularly with audio- which is the next big step; interestingly many who are advocates of BR state they have no interest in sound formats and yet this is the very reason why manufacturers bothered with BR in the first place. Manufacturers  research indicates that the average Joe doesnt care about HD audio and how long will the manufacturers provide firmware updates to prior models in order that the new discs can play and can average Joe do this?? I can tell you one major brand is already about to pull the plug on this service- leaving buyers high and dry.

We now have profile 1.1 players comming onto the market making all blue ray players  obsolete; and now 20th century Fox is developing master HD audio for BR  which NO player can play- even with the new profile! so the public is expected to buy into the  half completed technological mess gthat is Blue Ray and whilst I would not put money on it I think its far more likely that blue ray will collapse as a format than HDD and in the not to distant future- no manufacturer is making money from this!

Now we have a further mess developing- dual format- where the player will not be particualrly good at either format- smasung cant make a decent blue ray yet alone a dual format!

In the end its about price- for flat screen we had  SED which was  far superior to LCD and better than plasma in so many ways- and yet the manufactuers have thrown in the towel as the price of lcd which is  a very cheap technology to produce tumbles to the point where it is not economic to invest in another technology

&

soundproof:

@Greg

I don't care either way, Greg. I'm very happy with the quality of my upscaled DVDs - though I do enjoy the higher quality sound of the HD disc formats.
But there's a lot of misinformation from either side in the so called "war."

The threadstarter linked to a statistic that's worth taking a look at. BLU-RAY in the first column, HD-DVD in the second:

Weekly	55.3%	44.7%
Monthly	44.4%	55.6%
Yearly	48.7%	51.3%
Releases;/td>	511	438
* Based on AxelMusic sales

 

 

Upscaled DVDs are fine, but 'real' HD discs are substantially better. Real pixels are always going to be better than pixels the upscaler has guessed at, no matter how good the upscaling is!

As regards misinformation - your sales figures are "based on AxelMusic sales". In other words, this is not overall sales but sales from one particular (and relatively minor) online retailer. Single-retailer figures from Amazon might be meaningful, but really only the overall sales are the true picture. To reach conclusions based on just one minor retailers figures is crazy, I think.

But I really don't want an argument!! I'm not pro- or anti- either format, just enjoy whatever road you choose to go down. Just FWIW my opinion (and it's only my opinion) is that blu-ray will win this one. And also that in the fullness of time it won't matter either way because your high-def content will come straight from the internet download and to your screen via your computer. So it really doesn't matter! 

Greg:

&

soundproof:

@Greg

I don't care either way, Greg. I'm very happy with the quality of my upscaled DVDs - though I do enjoy the higher quality sound of the HD disc formats.
But there's a lot of misinformation from either side in the so called "war."

The threadstarter linked to a statistic that's worth taking a look at. BLU-RAY in the first column, HD-DVD in the second:

Weekly	55.3%	44.7%
Monthly	44.4%	55.6%
Yearly	48.7%	51.3%
Releases;/td>	511	438
* Based on AxelMusic sales

 

 

Upscaled DVDs are fine, but 'real' HD discs are substantially better. Real pixels are always going to be better than pixels the upscaler has guessed at, no matter how good the upscaling is!

As regards misinformation - your sales figures are "based on AxelMusic sales". In other words, this is not overall sales but sales from one particular (and relatively minor) online retailer. Single-retailer figures from Amazon might be meaningful, but really only the overall sales are the true picture. To reach conclusions based on just one minor retailers figures is crazy, I think.

But I really don't want an argument!! I'm not pro- or anti- either format, just enjoy whatever road you choose to go down. Just FWIW my opinion (and it's only my opinion) is that blu-ray will win this one. And also that in the fullness of time it won't matter either way because your high-def content will come straight from the internet download and to your screen via your computer. So it really doesn't matter! 

I would like to be enlightened! please tell me what 'real HD discs' i can buy that will offer this 'performance' to which one refers?? Many of my associates who have chosen to go the BR route always state they expected far more- and i have to agree. On a 50 hidef BV4 i can tell very little difference. maybe on LCD one would as it displays pictures alarmingly badly anway- so anything helps/

Well obviously on a 720 set like the BV4 (or indeed 428XD) you'll not notice the difference as much as you do on a 1080 set, for sure. But, and again maybe I'm 'special' but, the difference was very obvious to me. If you can't see it, of course don't bother with BR. But I'm amazed you can't! 

I should add the caveat that when I first watched a BR disc I wasn't exactly blown away, but watching the same movie on the same set from a standard DVD straight afterwards suddenly looked very bad! And putting the BR disc back on was like wiping the vaseline from the lens!

Greg:

Well obviously on a 720 set like the BV4 (or indeed 428XD) you'll not notice the difference as much as you do on a 1080 set, for sure. But, and again maybe I'm 'special' but, the difference was very obvious to me. If you can't see it, of course don't bother with BR. But I'm amazed you can't! 

I should add the caveat that when I first watched a BR disc I wasn't exactly blown away, but watching the same movie on the same set from a standard DVD straight afterwards suddenly looked very bad! And putting the BR disc back on was like wiping the vaseline from the lens!

 

well firstly dont get carried away with specifications! processing power is all -1080 is not the holy grail as many have found out- it almost comes bottom of the list in terms of what makes a good picture! interestingly many on the trade are amazed the difference is so small.

 

 

I also Have a Pioneer 1080 and cant tell the differmnce with that- and when swopping back to upscaled dvd it is not a significant difference!

Please tell methe discs I should buy to demeonstate the superb 'advances that BR offers??? then many meneber can experience this!

Must confess I'm much in agreement with 355f here.

===

I'll be "brief":

HDMI, BluRay and HD-DVD are Digital Rights Management COPY PROTECTION SCHEMES, disguised as offering improved image and sound quality to consumers.

In order to get consumers to go along with this scheme, the carrots of improved image and sound are held out before prospective buyers. But a lot of people are buying into this copy protection hardware and software while unaware that they can actually be locked out of accessing the same if illegit use is detected. (With lots of people reporting such lock-outs while making perfectly legitimate use of same.) Vista, HDMI 1.3 and both high resolution playback formats have intricate, two-way and internet connected copy protection built in, with certificates signing off on everything you want to do with the equipment. This is the movie and music industry's attempt to "do something about illegal downloads and copying."

Yes, the Full-HD image of a properly sourced and scanned production is superior to upscaled DVD, no doubt about that. And multi-channel, full resolution sound is a blast. Nice carrots - I'm equipping my Home Theatre to be able to enjoy that fully.

BUT - the difference between Full-HD and excellently upscaled DVD is not sufficient to get me to abandon my many hundreds of DVDs. (I did that once, with VHS, but I won't do it again. Particularly not for older, classic source material that was not produced either visually or aurally to exploit what the new formats can do.

On a well calibrated screen, with the playback unit properly configured, you'll get amazed by what you can get out of your DVDs. As 355f states above, several of the major players are abandoning the high-rez formats due to lackluster sales (to say the least) - people aren't letting themselves be tricked into making the major upgrade involved, and overall sales are seriously lagging relative to the projections underlying the initial investments in the technologies.

As to whether Full-HD is better than HD-Ready - well, the resolution's technically better, and at close range you can also perceive it. But I have to confess at finding a lot of the Full-HD material I have seen "plasticky" compared to both cinema and HD-Ready resolutions. (All modern movie screens are perforated, in order to let the sound from the center speakers and L/R speakers through - and I think we like what that perforation does to the image. The Full-HD image gets clinical in comparison.)

Whatever. The BluRay camp is getting desperate according to what I'm being told, and the staggering price-cuts on HD-DVD is building an unexpected relative groundswell for that format. All projections BEFORE the "war" had BluRay beating its rival in short order - that didn't pan out.

As to people stating a huge difference between Full-HD and HD-Ready, at normal viewing distances ... I'd want to ask whether the playback chains were similar.

 

Hi,

 

in german computer magazine "c't" was a very detailed article about both formats and bluray is technically advanced in some cases. HD-DVD has compressed audio on some tracks which means less quality ...

 

I hope bluray wins this format war ...

 

 

TWG:

Hi,

in german computer magazine "c't" was a very detailed article about both formats and bluray is technically advanced in some cases. HD-DVD has compressed audio on some tracks which means less quality ...

I hope bluray wins this format war ...

You're right, on most parameters BluRay is technically superior, including having larger storage space. (Though the latter is also why BluRay players are so slow in getting going when you load a disk.)

Maybe we're in for a flashback. Betamax had the best image and sound, but VHS won ... 

Well, admitted I work at axelmusic.dk. But remember that the statistics are based on sales out of store - I could imagine a number of reasons why any of the camps would sell any retailer and/or webshop a large number of their discs, just to get the sales registered – especially with a large international one - those figures could still turn pages this early in the battle. When that is said, I still don’t think we will necessarily ever see a winner, and if ever: it still might not be the best…

At the moment any new (only to) blu-ray released simultaneously with the DVD will push the statistics in blu-ray as winner direction (we have had 4 large of those this year) – there has not yet been a single (only to) HD-DVD simultaneously with any DVD in Denmark yet. And here the (high-def) backcatalogue has the same insane price as the new (high-def) releases… I think that’s why we don’t share the same statistics as axelmusic.com.

 

soundproof:

Maybe we're in for a flashback. Betamax had the best image and sound, but VHS won ... 

The only reason VHS won, was because all the adult-movies were released on VHS.

355f:

Greg:

Well obviously on a 720 set like the BV4 (or indeed 428XD) you'll not notice the difference as much as you do on a 1080 set, for sure. But, and again maybe I'm 'special' but, the difference was very obvious to me. If you can't see it, of course don't bother with BR. But I'm amazed you can't! 

I should add the caveat that when I first watched a BR disc I wasn't exactly blown away, but watching the same movie on the same set from a standard DVD straight afterwards suddenly looked very bad! And putting the BR disc back on was like wiping the vaseline from the lens!

 

well firstly dont get carried away with specifications! processing power is all -1080 is not the holy grail as many have found out- it almost comes bottom of the list in terms of what makes a good picture! interestingly many on the trade are amazed the difference is so small.

 

 

I also Have a Pioneer 1080 and cant tell the differmnce with that- and when swopping back to upscaled dvd it is not a significant difference!

Please tell methe discs I should buy to demeonstate the superb 'advances that BR offers??? then many meneber can experience this!

 

Alright, let's not fall out over this!!!  I'm saying that, disregarding specifications completely (perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that I wasn't talking about paper specifications, but my own experience), and relying on my eyes, I have seen a very clear difference. I find it hard to believe that you can't see it, you find it hard to believe that I can. We're evidently different people. As I said before, if you don't need or want blu-ray or hddvd, don't get it! And then this whole thread is also irrelevant to you!!!

---

btw I have viewed only 2 discs - one was Casino Royale, and one was a movie I haven't seen before and I'm afraid I don't know it's name!

 

soundproof:

As to people stating a huge difference between Full-HD and HD-Ready, at normal viewing distances ... I'd want to ask whether the playback chains were similar.

In case that was directed at me, to clarify: I'm saying that the difference between Blu-ray (or I guess HDDVD) and upscaled DVDs is more obvious on a 1080 screen than it is on a 720. That should really be self-evident!

What I'm *NOT* saying is that 1080 is hugely better (or better at all) picture quality than 720. As I've said many times above (maybe not clearly or frequently enough?) so far, in my experience, 720 plasmas have much nicer picture quality (greater depth, contrast, movement, 'cinematic' quality) than 1080 LCDs (very sharp, very bright, somehow brash and slightly 2-dimensional picture). I haven't watched a 1080 plasma for any length of time (I'm not wealthy enough to have a pioneer 50" full HD and BV4 at my disposal!) so I can't comment on that. 

That's a totally different argument, and in fact we're now discussing 3 'extra' topics:

1) Is blu-ray better picture than upscaled DVD (I'm calling 'yes' from my experience)

2) Is 1080 better than 720 (I'm calling 'not necessarily' from my experience)

3) blu-ray and HDDVD only exist to introduce DRM to physical media (I think that's a bit of a stretch, but maybe you know better!)

in addition to the thread's original topic:

4) Blu-ray vs HDDVD (I'm calling Blu-ray, but it's likely to not matter in the long run) 

So maybe we'll leave it there! 

 

1) Is blu-ray better picture than upscaled DVD (I'm calling 'yes' from my experience)

Agreed - but at present DVD is a much more convenient format, while BR suffers from long start-up times and non-standardized implementation from various providers. But the picture is better on BR. 

2) Is 1080 better than 720 (I'm calling 'not necessarily' from my experience)

My experience - from direct comparison of the two screens (50" Pioneer Kuro XD and LX) side-by-side from about 3m: not hugely discernible unless you're dealing with very large screens/projection. 

3) blu-ray and HDDVD only exist to introduce DRM to physical media (I think that's a bit of a stretch, but maybe you know better!)

The copyright protection schemes built into the formats, and into HDMI, are such that you can get locked out of your hardware and software if non-authorized use is detected. 

in addition to the thread's original topic:

4) Blu-ray vs HDDVD (I'm calling Blu-ray, but it's likely to not matter in the long run) 

I would also like BR to "win" - particularly as it has the most storage space for fully transparent, non-compressed audio. But as 355f states above it appears that people don't care enough about that to adopt the new high resolution formats in sufficient numbers. 

So maybe we'll leave it there! 

 

Don't leave it there!
I have no experience of either format so am not qualified to comment.
I do know this though. It makes no odds which is best, the great unwashed will chose the winner with their £££s

What a good thread this has been.

BTW, Greg. Thanks for "FWIW" it has been added to the "What does ***** mean?" thread.

Andy T.

if VHS survived because of the adult movie industrie then we could see the same success for HD DVD as i believe all the adult movie studio's have chosed this as their format.

However with adult content so freely available on the net then this legitimate adult content bought from stores may have less impact.

jazz
 

jazz:

if VHS survived because of the adult movie industrie then we could see the same success for HD DVD as i believe all the adult movie studio's have chosed this as their format.

I'm not entirely certain that seeing acres of naked flesh in High-Definition resolution, pores and all, will be a benefit to the "adult" industry ...