General Forum

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

Dave — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:27:56 GMT

It's all quite interesting, maybe B&O can't do anything about this, as they have to get their components from somewhere, and if the quality control at those companies is poor, what can they do? Whatever happened to getting their components supplied by panasonic?

In my opinion, samsung isn't that great

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KMA — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:49:58 GMT

Puncher:

Folk used to claim that B&O only took the top few percentage performing panels for their TV's which partly explained their premium price. (Maybe this was plasma, but what's changed)?

Could it be that the panel supplier's standards have got lower? Are they providing inferior stock in order to get rid of old panels now that the new production models are on the way (C-series as opposed to B8000-series panels currently used in BeoVision 10)? ...These are just guesses.

I'd like to think that at B&O nothing has changed, and they are doing all they can do to maintain very strict quality control on purchased panels (and on all other components as well). If this thread / case has lead to anything at B&O, may it be in even more scrutinous QC.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

Puncher — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:55:36 GMT

Folk used to claim that B&O only took the top few percentage performing panels for their TV's which partly explained their premium price. (Maybe this was plasma, but what's changed)?

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KMA — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:44:19 GMT

Sad news:

I had a preview of two BeoVision 10 units at my dealer's tonight, after the shop's closing hours, in somewhat dimmed lighting conditions. "Movie watching conditions" could not be achieved, due to too much ambient light coming from the shopping centre's hallways.

One of the units had clouding that was actually worse than on my BeoVision 10. The other had notable clouding that was practically no improvement over mine. Both me and my dealer agreed on the problem.

So, 3 out of 3 BeoVision 10 units that I have seen had apparent clouding. Exchange proved not to be a viable solution to the issue, and I am looking at other options with my dealer.

Sadly, BeoVision 10 is not a keeper for me.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KMA — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 04:05:52 GMT

KingOfSnake:

Is there any progress with this? I don't think this thread should be allowed to die - my BV10 has none of these problems so the claim that clouding is inherent in LCD technology is clearly not true - no clouding on any of my Apple Displays either........ have there been any developments?

Yes, I'm happy to say that I have some good news (I was going to share them after everything's settled):

I was contacted by my dealer and BeoCare; they have been in talks with each other, and we will solve the issue with my BeoVision 10 during this week.

My dealer will set up a preview of an exchange unit late in the evening, after the shop's closing hours, when dark & near dark viewing conditions can be arranged.

If there's no clouding visible with the exchange unit, I'll have a cloud-free BeoVision 10 by the end of the week. If, however, clouding is apparent on the exchange model as well, I can have a refund.

This may not be a standard procedure, and possibly varies on the severity of clouding or individual perception of it, but I do appreciate the choices available to me, and I really like the way my dealer is handling the situation.

I am hoping for a good unit, of course, since BeoVision 10 is the only model in B&O's current range of televisions that truly appeals to me design-wise.

So I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a happy closure to my case :)

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KingOfSnake — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:14:28 GMT

Is there any progress with this? I don't think this thread should be allowed to die - my BV10 has none of these problems so the claim that clouding is inherent in LCD technology is clearly not true - no clouding on any of my Apple Displays either........ have there been any developments?

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

soundchoice70 — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:56:55 GMT

Hi KMA,

I have watched this thread with interest as I'm thinking about getting a BV10 in the near future and wanted to see if your problem gets sorted... it really is an 'affordable' BV5 which i have always loved....

But you know what? This should not be your issue at all..... what RWST, Peter and others have alluded to and you have just conclude yourself is exactly correct... Your dealer should take back your TV and replace it with a new one and then they fight it out with B&O. I trust your dealer realises the bad image they are representing with this lack of basic customer service?

I see often in the fitout industry, my local suppliers / agents order goods (such as furniture, lighting etc ) from manufacturers/partners overseas, and if the goods come and are defective, they replace them. Its their responsibility to provide their client with a quality product, if their 'source' lets them down by giving less than the expectations, then as a business its their responsibility to provide what is expected and then take it up with the manufacturer separately after they have settled their clients problem.

I hope you can get this sorted out quickly.

Laurence.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KMA — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:25:48 GMT

RWST:

Hi KMA,

Just had a chat with my dealer in Zurich, and pretty much as I expected, the feedback was similar to the one I received from my dealer in Amsterdam.

Thanks RWST,

It's good to hear how other dealers would react to such obvious clouding problems. I phoned my dealer on Wednesday, and they are active on the issue, and of course keep me informed of anything they hear from the factory.

The responses from your dealers have got me thinking though, as did Peter's recent post: maybe my dealer should simply act on their own, replace the television regardless of what B&O Denmark instruct or doesn't instruct, and then take it up with them.

Either way, as per my extended leniency in the complaint, both my dealer and B&O Denmark are currently within the 21-day "review & remedy" period. Who acts and how to resolve this, that remains to be seen.

Given that I am a B&O enthusiast, I am perhaps investing too much of my time in this on my dealer's behalf...

Again, thank you for the enquires you've made :)

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

RWST — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:38:25 GMT

Hi KMA,

Just had a chat with my dealer in Zurich, and pretty much as I expected, the feedback was similar to the one I received from my dealer in Amsterdam.

I am not trying to point if it is your dealer's fault or not, that is not the issue to my point of view. Rather the point in case is, how does your dealer react when a faulty/defected product is being delivered to one of "his" clients. Being part of a dealership, I view, is being the face of the company directly to the client. As such you try to represent the company as best as possible. Especially for a company like B&O and for the money that is being paid for its products, as a client you should receive the best service possible. In other words, I just feel your dealer should push a bit harder to stand for your interest and not just cash in, whether the "clouding" issue is his fault or not.

Good luck

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

Peter — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:44:08 GMT

I agree it is not your dealer's fault, but he sold it to you and has the profit. I would actually expect that he would take it back and argue with B&O himself.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KMA — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:25:33 GMT

cooldude:

http://revision3.com/hdnation/coenbros/wrinkly-lcd-screen .. might be interest to you.

Thanks for the link, Cooldude. It's a delicate thing manufacturing LCD panels, so many things can go wrong.

And you're absolutely right, this whole thing is by no means my dealers fault.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

cooldude — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:18:16 GMT

I don't think it's your dealers fault. However, if B&O did not conduct a burn-in testing period of all panels than it's their fault if the panels proved to be faulty as they are responsible for the end product.

By the sound of it, it is probably heat related. Also when small amounts of static are present when the polarization layer is applied this uneven effect might happen as well.

http://revision3.com/hdnation/coenbros/wrinkly-lcd-screen .. might be interest to you.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

KMA — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:51:27 GMT

cooldude:

I always found edge lit lcd screen to .... light the edges more than the middle of the panel. The bigger the screen, the more it becomes noticable imo.
However, never patchy like on the photos....something went wrong somewhere. I am sure the panels are checked and calibrated and leave the factory in good condition. Either something happened in transport or installation or the panel has a defect because of bad application of the filter layer. Panels should never be put flat (which makes the screen warp under its own weight) but kept right side up at all times.

Hi Cooldude,

I think the reason why my BeoVision 10 passed the check done during factory calibration is because the clouding is not visible at all for the first 10 - 20 minutes, when the TV is turned on. Then it becomes visible, and the longer the TV is on, the worse the clouding gets. It seems that the light guide or the LCD used in the panel reacts to the panel warming up. If I put the TV on Picture Mute for an hour or so (the backlight turns off), and then switch the picture back on, the clouding is again not visible for 10 - 20 minutes.

The BeoVision 10 arrived on a pallet to my home, and was obviously transported in the upright position at all times. The packaging was in perfect condition. It was a two-man job carefully installing the TV on the floor stand (with a B&O installer), and it hasn't been moved since.

Therefore I dare say that the fault probably originates from the Samsung factory (a bad production run). Alternatively something was done wrong at the assembly at B&O, perhaps given the enormous demand for BeoVision 10 and B&O speeding up production somehow.

I really wish that in the not too distant future the industry sets ISO standards for LCD backlights, as they have done for dead pixels years ago. It would make it much easier for B&O to buy panels that meet the most demanding ISO standard, instead of going by whatever grade the manufacturer gives a production run.

I also think that B&O should add a dark-room step to the QC and assembly, to check the backlight, and give the TV an hour or so to warm up. This would show any heat related backlight issues that are not visible at startup.

Being an early adopter of a new product has its downside. Hopefully all the feedback from us "beta testers" is valuable for B&O in perfecting the component selection and assembly.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

Hardwriter — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:47:21 GMT

Hi KMA,

I read this part of your post:

"All the above may sound harsh: I just get quite irritated when I hear any claims that manufacturers say an obvious defect is somehow inherent to a technology, or a design thereof"

and realised I may have misled you in my comment. I did not mean that the clouding fault is acceptable as clearly it is not - I would be furious if I had bought a B&O TV that displayed such an image. But non-Beoworld forum postings suggest there is an inherent design problem with the Samsung lightguide that can result in variable and unpredictable performance. These posts claim even replacement panels that appeared problem-free at first may develop clouding over time - I'm not sure that is a simple QC issue.

Clouding may only affect a few panels but if it's your panel that is no consolation. And if there is one thing worse than a problem with a new TV it's a problem with a four year old TV that's out of warranty. You may be better off demanding a refund now then buying a new BV10 in a year's time, when hopefully any design/manufacturing problems will have been resolved.

Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

cooldude — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:09:26 GMT

Wow, seeing the pictures, that's really bad for a tv in this price rang. Unacceptable.

There is a difference of what is acceptable in a 700$ generic tv and a high-end premium B&O tv.

The bigger and thinner the screen, the more problems the lcd tech will have. The lcd technology is moving forward at great speed and at the same time is trying to increase production in order to lower prices. I guess it will not be uncommon to have problem panels.
The fact that there are very few companies producing them is not helping. B&O is but a small client for a giant like samsung.

I always found edge lit lcd screen to .... light the edges more than the middle of the panel. The bigger the screen, the more it becomes noticable imo.
However, never patchy like on the photos....something went wrong somewhere. I am sure the panels are checked and calibrated and leave the factory in good condition. Either something happened in transport or installation or the panel has a defect because of bad application of the filter layer. Panels should never be put flat (which makes the screen warp under its own weight) but kept right side up at all times.

I own two 50" plasma panels (kuro and panasonic) and have never had any problems with them. The blacks are deep and solid.Maybe because of that I notice the lcd difference more?