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Latest post 06-16-2009 12:59 PM by Beottaku. 113 replies.
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  • 06-04-2009 5:35 PM In reply to

    • Craig
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Lee, I think this is great news. However, I also think by far the most important thing here is that Beoworld remains independent. Pretty sure you and the mods will work out the best way for this to happen.

     

    CraigSmile

    For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk and we learned to listen..

  • 06-04-2009 5:49 PM In reply to

    • Corvin
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Sounds fair and reasonable.

    I think that long term it could be a real win win situatuion where B&O could model upgrades and future products incorporating those features most desired.

  • 06-04-2009 8:10 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I figure that it's not like we don't know Bang & Olufsen exist, so why not let Beoworld get paid for advertising the obvious. We all get more than the value we pay for our subscriptions and I'm sure none of us will hold back our viewpoints either.

    Do it!!

    Who knows, first prize in the Prize Draw could be a new Beovision or new Beolabs that you wouldn't have to pay postage for because they could be collected from your local store!! Yes -  thumbs up

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 06-04-2009 8:25 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Sure why not. 

    If it doesnt seem to be working out we or they can always stop the advertising.

    Most of these arrangements are done under a contract so I say sign em up for a year and lets see how it works out.

  • 06-04-2009 11:50 PM In reply to

    • saf
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    mediabobny:

    Dave:

    but i cannot see how this will benefit B&O... At all!

     Kindof the way I see it.  Are we really a desireable target audience?  We're already sold on, nay, addicted to the brand.  Do you need to advertise alcohol to alcoholics?  They need to expand their customer base, not preach to the choir.  IMHO.

     

    Rather similar opinion here as well with respect to B&O advertising, that is. Not necessarily other advertisers. Then again, B&O might come with some tailor-made ads that even BeoWorld members would find irresistible…Big Smile

     

    ___

     

    The discussion about advertising on the site has been here before … maybe it’s just me but I don’t quite seem to get its outcome.

     

    I mean, the essential question, Lee, is if you think BeoWorld as a concept is (ultimately) to be run as an independent commercial or an independent ‘enthusiasts’ enterprise (based on a ‘budget’ given by paid for memberships). Then there is, of course, ‘something’ in between those two (as it now seems to be the case) which while very wide-spread is the least transparent alternative – and arguably also the least optimal/manageable one.

     

    As any other practitioner, I know that live/business is a ‘muddling-through-things’ journey rather than an easy ride according to a magic formula for success: So don’t get me wrong, please. I really think you & Co are doing a fantastic job and potentially might be on to something rather rarely seen in terms of a customer-corporation relationship.

     

    To be sure, I’m not merely saying that you should ‘declare’ if you want to run BeoWorld for profit or not! Only that the rules to play by will be distinctly different under each alternative and rather imposed on you from the outside. That said, I’ve no doubt there will be plenty of valuable advice from the members no matter what you decide to do … and if one alternative doesn’t work then there is another one to try.

     

    There are hardly more alternatives than those mentioned above, so to discuss with the members – since you ask their opinions – the pros and cons of each should not be too abstract while certainly exciting and constructive, yes, even kind of pioneering. For now, though, it seems a bit unclear within what concept we discuss things.

     

    Perhaps establishing this might be helpful to eliminate the cacophony of our voices regarding whether there should be a B&O ad or not on the site?

  • 06-05-2009 2:03 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I don't think that Beoworld will ever operate at a profit - it would be quite nice if it broke even though! Lee has already said that any potential profit would go back into the site. I also think we should not over estimate what we would get from B&O anyway! This would seem to be an opportunity to get access to good photographs and technical information and if successful could lead to other benefits in the future. I would regard the first attempts as a suck it and see process for both parties. There would be no compromise to the independence of the forum - I cannot see how they would influence me for instance as I take nothing from the site.

  • 06-05-2009 3:34 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I say go for it, but one issue however would be the reviews. How can beoworld make any honest and independent reviews of B&O tv's if we dont review other brands to compare with? B&O fan(s) reviewing B&O tv's only - can never be considered fair and will always have a label of advertising stuck to it.

  • 06-05-2009 4:33 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Remember Victor Kayam?

    Is this the thin end of the wedge?

    Is that what you want?

    Regards Graham

  • 06-05-2009 4:51 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    chrisped:

    I say go for it, but one issue however would be the reviews. How can beoworld make any honest and independent reviews of B&O tv's if we dont review other brands to compare with? B&O fan(s) reviewing B&O tv's only - can never be considered fair and will always have a label of advertising stuck to it.

     

    To be fair that's pretty much what we've got now albeit without the B&O Banner Ad - many a poster has had a severe thrashing for suggesting a lesser brand may in some way be better!Big Smile

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-05-2009 5:06 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    joeyboygolf:

    Remember Victor Kayam?

    Is this the thin end of the wedge?

    Is that what you want?

    I did say that I could well imagine B&O wanting to buy up the site in it's entirety as it is, given their relatively poor attempts at engaging the public at large on the internet.

    I have wondered what B&O hope to gain by advertising a BV8 to probably the largest concentration of folk in netdom who already know about it - maybe they do see it as a "foot in the door".

    I agree with jbg, I'm allergic to "marketing speak" and so couldn't stand a stream of pseudo "news stories & reviews" from the press department should their influence of the site ever extend beyond placing the odd Ad or two. What would they have done about Keith's sterling efforts to unlock the vagaries of the Beo5?? I think it would be a disaster were it to happen and the most likely outcome would be an "all new Beoworld" springing up elsewhere.

    Having said that, I'm happy they want to place a Ad on site, I'm happy to allow said Ad, it does give an air of "recognition" to the site, it's content and it's members. That's as far as it should go however, they should never be allowed to attain a position from which they can bring any pressure to bear, financial or otherwise.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-05-2009 6:23 AM In reply to

    • saf
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Peter :
    I don't think that Beoworld will ever operate at a profit - it would be quite nice if it broke even though!

    It will always break even if it doesn’t use more $ than it receives. Excuse my cynicism. Whistle

    Peter :
    Lee has already said that any potential profit would go back into the site.

    Er … the one you think will never materialize? Sorry, could not resist … it’s good to have a mixture of skepticism and optimism though.

     

    I hope I was not too unclear before: the case I was making was NOT for finding the answer to the question IF BeoWorld is to be run for profit (as I believe it should*), but HOW this could be achieved. A discussion of pros and cons of commercial approach (selling ads) v paid for membership etc. …

     

    *If what one decides to do is not at least breaking even, then it simply is not independent – financially, at least. Excuse me for stating the obvious. I’m really pleased to hear from Lee about BeoWorld being self sufficient (nice term, btw).

  • 06-05-2009 6:44 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Puncher:

    I did say that I could well imagine B&O wanting to buy up the site in it's entirety as it is, given their relatively poor attempts at engaging the public at large on the internet.

    I don't think that will happen. The reason Beoworld is 'successful' is not due to its independence, it's due to the fact that B&O do not have anything similar. Will all due respect to this website, it's primarily a forum. It would be dead easy for B&O to create their own community server or similar, if they wanted. We all browse their site and we'd use a a decent forum on their homepage, if it existed.

    However, many corporates do not want a fully-fledged internal forum. As I've found across our magazine forums, most forum users are not the best reflection of our brand, they are fairly negative and actually *put off* advertisers as they get the impression that no-one is happy with their software.

  • 06-05-2009 7:39 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    moxxey:

    Puncher:

    I did say that I could well imagine B&O wanting to buy up the site in it's entirety as it is, given their relatively poor attempts at engaging the public at large on the internet.

    I don't think that will happen. The reason Beoworld is 'successful' is not due to its independence, it's due to the fact that B&O do not have anything similar. Will all due respect to this website, it's primarily a forum. It would be dead easy for B&O to create their own community server or similar, if they wanted. We all browse their site and we'd use a a decent forum on their homepage, if it existed.

    However, many corporates do not want a fully-fledged internal forum. As I've found across our magazine forums, most forum users are not the best reflection of our brand, they are fairly negative and actually *put off* advertisers as they get the impression that no-one is happy with their software.

    Wrong! Moxxey.

    We don't all browse their site and that, I believe , is the problem. B&O can see the fantastic amount of traffic that BeoWorld attracts and they want in.

    Don't forget that more often than not, visitors far outnumber members online at any particular time. Maybe it is these "don't knows" that B&O will try to convert.

    Who is Online

    There are 124 guest(s) online. There are 15 member(s) online. - rae, richtoy, Large48, dedam, fridsten, PentaIII, Dave Moulton, Bieele, a2bur, 9 LEE, mafanni, js, Michael, Zwaan, joeyboygolf

    If this goes ahead and B&O are invited to advertise, I can see their involvement growing to a stage where somebody in Struer says "Why are we messing about throwing money at this bunch of amatuers". "Let's buy the site, and the owner and do the job properly in our PR dept"!!

    Then what????

    Regards Graham

  • 06-05-2009 8:14 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    joeyboygolf:

    ..........................and do the job properly in our PR dept"!!

    Have they recruited someone new??Laughing

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-05-2009 8:21 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Lee,

    I am a non-paying member so fully accept my view may not carry the weight of the paying members, but I'd like to raise some issues from a media industry perspective - some of which are similar to saf's.

    At present you accept "advertising" from a small number of companies in the form of sponsorship for a specific product or service. Each time you expand that you take a step closer to becoming a commercial site, which means your opportunity under European law to refuse an advertiser diminishes.

    You may be happy to take advertising from B&O but would you want to accept it from LG and Panasonic, too. Or from MoreThanAV and Iconic-AV.

    You also risk becoming dependant on the revenue - that is when the moderators' position can become a little awkward.

    I do not think you should keep B&O out completely - after all, that's what the whole site exists for. But I'd suggest you provide exposure in return for prizes or special discounts rather than cash.

    All the above said, it's your decision.

     

     

  • 06-05-2009 11:02 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    joeyboygolf:

    Wrong! Moxxey.

    We don't all browse their site

    You mean, people who use B&O kit, don't use the B&O website? I find that hard to believe that you make NO reference to the site.

    Besides, you miss the point. I'm saying that if B&O *wanted* to create their own decent user forum, they could. It's not particularly difficult and would be low-cost for B&O. However, they don't *want* to do that (and most large organisations do not want to moderate their own customer reactions) so it's far easier to advertise on here. What's the point of re-inventing the successful wheel?

    Try and read through what I say before saying I'm 'wrong', please.

    joeyboygolf:

    If this goes ahead and B&O are invited to advertise, I can see their involvement growing to a stage where somebody in Struer says "Why are we messing about throwing money at this bunch of amatuers". "Let's buy the site, and the owner and do the job properly in our PR dept"!!

    That's paranoia at it's worst. Do you know how commercial online advertising works? As I said, B&O could do their own forum, easily, if that's what they wanted. Do you know how easy it is to create a forum? They already have a userbase - it's called their own customers.

    They simply want to advertise on what they see as a successful third-party B&O-friendly site. No more, no less.

  • 06-05-2009 12:44 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    moxxey:

    They simply want to advertise on what they see as a successful third-party B&O-friendly site. No more, no less.

    Nail, hammer, head.

    Come on people, this is B&O.. not a political party! Anyone would think we were being taken over by something sinister!

  • 06-05-2009 1:04 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    @Moxxey

    I did read through what you said and just now I've read it through twice more. I still think you are wrong!

    This might come as a surprise to you, there are people who don't hang on your every word!!

    B&O have tried to set up a forum/website.......and failed on each occasion. I think it strange that a company that makes such attractive user friendly products could have chosen such crap user interfaces for their attempts at websites.

    I wonder if the guy who designed the Beolounge is still working for the company? I hope somebody got the message and he is now making the tea or sweeping the factory floor. Maybe he is in the Czech Republic!!!!

    I can assure you that since I discovered Beoworld back some 5 or 6 years ago I have not felt the need to visit the official B&O site other than a quick glance when their publicity machine indicated that there might be something worth looking at. On each occasion they/it failed to hold my attention.

    From what I have been able to glean from our forum, there are others on here who feel likewise. From what I remember, the best thing about the company forum was Mr Peter!

    Much of my working experience was in a company not unlike B&O. The same sort of size, similar turnover and similar structure. The first reaction with a "competitor" website like Beoworld would be to ignore it. They did just that and with good reasons which have been documented.

    Down the line, the "competitor" has grown to the extent that it cannot reasonably be ignored and it makes good sense to make use of it.

    This is where we are at the moment. You could well be correct about the future......but equally so might I!

    I note that Lee has recently spent some time in Struer. Of course he might be sheering sheep, it must be getting warmer in Denmark. Alternatively.........

    Regards Graham

  • 06-05-2009 1:23 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I think it's important to air all views and explore all possibilities before beginning such a relationship. It will be a good while before we ever find out who, if anyone, was right about how the relationship panned out, however we'd look pretty daft if we ended up somewhere we hadn't considered!

    I believe it would be foolish not to be cautious at the outset, we can always revisit the terms of the relationship if all goes well.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 06-05-2009 1:24 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    the best thing about the company forum was Mr koning!

    Thank you joeyboygolf.

    (lol)

  • 06-05-2009 2:40 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    I think B&O have tried having their own forum at least three times and each time it has just not worked. This is because it will always be populated by unhappy customers who have been failed by the system. As B&O are the system, they have little answer. Here the same people get sympathy and a new pair of eyes and also answers that think outside the box.  Not always right but usually based on experience. I am sure B&O really do not want to buy their way into this!

  • 06-05-2009 7:55 PM In reply to

    • SWISS_2
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Go for it Lee !

  • 06-05-2009 9:45 PM In reply to

    • beoaus
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    My view is that it is 50/50 as to whether B&O will survive another 2 or more years. Indicators are not great. Product and marketing decisions in the last few years have been ill advised and not successful.

    I would hope the offer is based around B&O taking ownership of their many stuff ups and moving forward on a new path along with significant changes.

    Let them advertise on the site, be done with it.

    I'd rather be here in a few years talking summarily about the fresh new Beosound11 and the Beogram 3000 rather than just perusing bygone products in the same vein as buggy whips...

    beoaus.

  • 06-06-2009 9:57 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    Hardwriter:

    At present you accept "advertising" from a small number of companies in the form of sponsorship for a specific product or service. Each time you expand that you take a step closer to becoming a commercial site, which means your opportunity under European law to refuse an advertiser diminishes.

    You may be happy to take advertising from B&O but would you want to accept it from LG and Panasonic, too. Or from MoreThanAV and Iconic-AV.

    You also risk becoming dependant on the revenue - that is when the moderators' position can become a little awkward.

     

    Buy this man a drink first and secondly a spellchecker (dependent!).

    Personally I think whereas Lee has done a good job with the Beoworld site it is independent from what?  Lee has commercial interests and given the analysis of Hardwriter and the absence of advertising from any other reseller company is indicative of the accuracy of this IMHO.  If we go back to the old chesnut that advertising from only one genre then it at least puts B&O's position in doubt, but then again the position was also that the site wasn't to become an advertising horse - obviously Keith's ad, Sounds Heavenly, Struer Design and STB Brackets at the foot of the page are touching on this too.

    But maybe time to move on, let B&O advertise in my view.  There will be indirect benefits to Lee and his Company but also to the site as a whole with improved prizes and so on.  

     

  • 06-06-2009 10:49 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: BeoWorld and B&O..

    KingOfSnake:

    Buy this man a drink first and secondly a spellchecker (dependent!).

    Personally I think whereas Lee has done a good job with the Beoworld site it is independent from what?  Lee has commercial interests and given the analysis of Hardwriter and the absence of advertising from any other reseller company is indicative of the accuracy of this IMHO.  If we go back to the old chesnut that advertising from only one genre then it at least puts B&O's position in doubt, but then again the position was also that the site wasn't to become an advertising horse - obviously Keith's ad, Sounds Heavenly, Struer Design and STB Brackets at the foot of the page are touching on this too.

    But maybe time to move on, let B&O advertise in my view.  There will be indirect benefits to Lee and his Company but also to the site as a whole with improved prizes and so on.  

     

    The "other reseller" thing has been done to death many times - the issue here is not what benefit Lee & his Company may or may not get from B&O advertising on this site but rather whether their doing so will adversely affect or restrict in any way the content and function of the site.

    I do agree we should proceed.

    (btw - I believe chesnut has an additional "t")

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

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